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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:23 am 
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tranzformer wrote:
^ SSB to follow what you said about the burden of proof being low, here is a copy of the USADA statement on burden of proof. Will let the lawyers get into it.

@ SSB, a follow question I have is whether cycling can ever be a clean/pure sport? It just seems the history of it is so deep with doping and use of performance enhancing substances (free its very beginning) all the way up to now. These riders perform at such a high level of performance over such a long period of time, that I wonder how one gets rid of doping? The benefits are too large. Almost seems like it should be allowed and then closely monitored with several team physicians to ensure rider safety. Because it is the safety and health of the rider that is used as an excuse against doping right?


That's something I can't really think of a solution to. Again, theoretically creating harsher punishments should be a deterrent to anyone even considering doping. Having seen multiple examples of why harsh punishments in the real world/cycling world don't work, I've come to the conclusion that not only does it fail to work, it has the tendency to exacerbate the problem because efforts are directed towards punishment rather than deterrence. The motive to cheat is simple: you gain a lot of glory and monetary awards. You can't exactly remove these incentives from pro cycling, otherwise what would be the point of the sport?

On a fundamental level, I believe that in all sports, one should be competing on the basis of their natural abilities. But one can dedicate their entire life to training and become a top player from a person who is merely "good", and a person who dopes within the safe range for their body can also be on the same field. What people find morally reprehensible is that the last person got to point X with a shortcut, and that is why those people are punished in society. A solution is that we just allow doping with ironclad oversight, and everyone is giving a level playing field, so it's one's choice to dope or not to dope to reach the limits of their body.

The problem that creates is that it contradicts the spirit of the sport, it's supposed to be man vs. man and not an arms race. That's a partial reason why we have limits and standards for bike design and weight. If we allowed doping, but within safe levels, then you'll bet that there'll be people with bottomless pockets trying to push the envelope of what is "safe", and again, we're back to the problem of it being an uneven playing field and a race between technologies, not bike riders.

There are so many sports that are clean out there, and all of them have the same incentives (i.e. glory and money.) Maybe we need to learn a thing or two from them? The solution is not as easy as telling kids not to dope, like how people tell kids drugs are bad.

Sorry for the long-winded posts, but it's a nice distraction from work. :beerchug:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:26 am 
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mjduct wrote:
Mr.Gib wrote:
Pump the brakes there a second. In sports it's fraud, in music it's inspiration.

Just because many of us want to see Lance fry doesn't mean we didn't love watching him race. I must have watched the 2003 Luz Ardiden stage a dozen times. Love it. And even Landis' big day was amazing to watch. Of course it was a bit of a sham but still lots of fun.


sounds to me like you were inspired by some of these epic now questionable rides my friend :lol:

I personally enjoyed baseball alot better when half the guys looked Like Arnold Scharzenneggar (sp?) and hit 70+ home runs per year, I'm pretty sure that the NFL is going to get alot less freakish when they institute their testing protocol. I'm 100% sure that in most countries what musicians do is illegal, but it makes them "better" and earns them money, and somehow were ok with that...

Why not in professional sports?


Because when you cheat in sports you are stealing something from a non-cheater. Not so in music. In fact recreational drugs and booze have probably destroyed more good music than it has helped create.

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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:26 am 


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:34 am 
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53x12 wrote:
Mr.Gib wrote:
Pump the brakes there a second. In sports it's fraud, in music it's inspiration.

Just because many of us want to see Lance fry doesn't mean we didn't love watching him race. I must have watched the 2003 Luz Ardiden stage a dozen times. Love it. And even Landis' big day was amazing to watch. Of course it was a bit of a sham but still lots of fun.

Lance, you have entertained us - thank you. But the time has come to pay the debt owed for selling your soul. "Of your flesh that remains I will take as my food". Isn't this great!



Since you are so sure Lance doped, I am equally sure Cav doped. There is no way he can outperform other cyclists like that. It is all about EPO for him.


"So sure" sounds like there is some possibility otherwise. C'mon 53x12, it's common knowledge in cycling circles. Even the most average observers are past speculating. Do like I do - sit back and enjoy the show. Besides, there are lots of people out there who think that man has no impact on the temperature on this planet. You could always join those folks and if that's not good enough there are still some that insist the world is flat, that dinosaurs never exist, etc. etc. This is fun.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:38 am 
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Ok Mr. Gib, I resign and agree with you. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:42 am 
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I feel sorry for the mods but this thread is at least somewhat entertaining to read whilst I eat my lunch :lol:

Mr.Gib wrote:
In fact recreational drugs and booze have probably destroyed more good music than it has helped create.

Do you actually know anything about interesting music? :|


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:06 am 
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If Bruyneel caves under pressure then what? :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:32 am 
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jooo wrote:
I feel sorry for the mods but this thread is at least somewhat entertaining to read whilst I eat my lunch


I don't see any problems with this thread. People are civil and discussing the topic. Sure there are differing viewpoints, but who cares? That is life. Not everyone in life will agree with what we as an individual believe. And it is good to hear another person's viewpoint. As long as people don't make it personal and resort to personal attacks. This thread is perfectly fine and is fairly well controlled. There are some threads in "Road" where there is more bickering over topics than in here.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:40 am 
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A few points-

1) We should forget about what happened years ago, and concentrate on cleaning up the sport NOW.

Check out the USADA notice, and tell me how many of those cats are still out there working in cycling. Those guys need to go. How do you get rid of them if not by force?

2) The next "Armstrong" will come along working the same template to success via fraudulent means, and that should be OK if what Armstrong did was OK.

Not just doping, but lying about it and having the cushion of public support from a fanbase who trolls the internet and attacks anyone who want to get at the truth.

3) The doping is more egregious in this case becasue of the size and scope of the victories, all while lying to cancer patients whom he's held hostage by making himself bigger than the disease or any of the treatments.

I repeat-if the doping doesn't bother you, and for many it doesn't because Lance will always remain your hero, then the lying about it to such a vulnerable populace looking for hope and inspiration is about as low as one can sink.

4) As the same stale arguments are put forth by the fanboys and apologists-waste of taxpaer money, never tsted positive, blah blah blah and so forth-at least for the time being this steroid freak, who it turns out probably doped like a loon throughout his whole career, cannot race until the investigation is over and done with.

And if cycling suffers a blow from this, it should. The UCI is partly to blame for being in cahoots with Bruyneel and Armstrong, and if they have any balls they will at the very least keep Bruyneel from participating in the Tour this year. Get these bums out of cycling. Then we can talk about moving on with a cleaner sport.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:08 am 
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Do loons take alot of performance enhancing drugs?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:59 am 
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I find it a bit amusing that of all organisations, the USADA is after the case. The "french just don't like me" doesn't really strike any more.

As regards to the fairness of investigating Armstrong as the only rider, leaving the others up there in the Grand Tours -- I think it's not unfair that Armstrong is investigated, it's unfair that the others aren't.

On the other hand I'd rather see all the effort being made into cleaning the sport now, instead of cutting back bio passport testing. But if Armstrong would be found guilty without a (published) positive test, that would certainly also be a strong message to past/potential cheaters, that they just can't rest on their laurels if they are not sound.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:14 am 
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I think it is important to direct the focus away from Mr Armstrong. It seems that the main reason (apart from the publicity value) why he is named and accused is because it is the only way to get him to talk. The main focus here is the organized doping system centered around the team (DS, Doctors, Soigneurs, pushers - in this case Mr Armstrong). Therefor it is relevant today and it is not that important whether Mr Armstrong was using PED's to win TDF or whether his competitors were also cheating. We are talking about fighting a culture in professional cycling that has allowed organized crime with dire medical consequences for some of the people involved (Jesús Manzano from Kelme springs into mind). I know the case of Mr Manzano is not relevant to this case, it is used as an example.

Personally I was never a big fan of Mr Armstrong, but that is beside the point here.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:19 am 
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from USADA letter you can notice that Pepe Marti has been notificated to this address

Mr. Pepe Marti
c/o UNION CYCLISTE INTERNATIONALE
Ch. de la Mêlée 12
1860 Aigle
Switzerland


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:53 am 
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toss out all of them. The riders the managers the promoters the governing bodies the labs the sponsors and the fans. All are complicit IMO. Then I can watch http://www.jeopardy.com/
in peace :wink:

for me it has come down to this, I don't believe anyone on this subject. All have vested interests.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:36 pm 
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Jeopardy,You must be on somthing to watch that .


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:52 pm 
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53x12 wrote:
jsinclair wrote:
this whole process is pointless and should not be pursued. Cycling as a sport would be better off just moving on and ignoring him.



I agree. Wouldn't the time and money be better spent trying to determine cyclists who are currently doping (or those in the near future) rather than go back 10-13 years to finally "nail" Lance. What is the point? I thought USADA wants to stop current doping. What is the point in trying to go back and "change history"? The damage has already been done. Try to change cycling now.


I think one of the problems that this case highlights is that the UCI isn't really testing all that well. They've openly admitted not testing at big races and they claim that they don't need to with the passport, but even Ashenden admitted that its fairly easy to get around the passport system. If the UCI did, in fact, cover up old positives (TdS and the 2009-2010 tests), failed to institute proper testing protocols, etc. then I think that its a much bigger issue as well. There has been some visible progress in the past few years so I'm curious to see what water those allegations hold. The UCI has had tests made available to it to test for masking agents, transfusions, etc. so it'd be a shame if they were really trying to be lax on purpose, only popping riders to prove a point, and not popping others for various reasons.

Its my hope that this at least reveals what, if anything has happened with Lance, his team, etc. so that maybe someone can learn from it. I hope the evidence produces changes in the way testing happens and helps to clean up the sport. I care far less about taking his jerseys away and more with actually using good evidence to clean the sport up some. I'd care more about the 2009 and 2010 tests than shit from 2001 but either way I hope that it contributes to the greater good by allowing WADA to catch the cheats, do what it can to test better, and clean up the image of the sport.

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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:52 pm 


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