Well, there's lots of frames I wouldn't buy because they have some element of the geometry that doesn't suit me. Maybe too long a top tube that doesn't match what I want in a head or seat tube. There's a multiplicity of geometry from particular manufacturers. I have a Dale Super6 in a 56cm with approx 2.5cm of spacers; a custom steel with no spacers; a custom ti with no spacers. All have different seat tube lengths. So, for me it's still not much of an argument because it appears there's still plenty of choice out there.

Sigh..are we really going over this non issue again...

It's not an argument yet but you are stirring the pot regardless.

If you have issues with current or future frames on the market and want a so called "true racing bike" then go order a custom?

_________________
"It never gets easier, you just go faster..." - Greg Lemond

"Because technology alone is a poor substitute for experience." - Richard Sachs

I agree 100% that the tall headtube trend is annoying. Cipo has that crazy frame with a good headtube length and wilier does a pro fit with their cento. I dont understand why ppl think they need a taller headtube. That belief is usually followed up with wondering why their butts hurt so much. Cuz youre riding a freakin unicycle with handlebars.
Having said that, there will always be those that need taller headtubes. just make some shorter ones too!

_________________
The word "Brifter" should be banned.
Casati Vola SLi- viewtopic.php?f=10&t=108931" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't know why either. But a quick visit to your local bike shop or the "Introduce Yourself / Gallery" sub-forum, will tell you why manufactures are rushing to deliver.

_________________
2013 Wilier Cento1 SR || 2009 Ridley Crossbow || 2011 Yeti AS-R 5 Carbon

A few decades lower end road bikes had a different geometry than hi-end frames. Longer seatstays, taller headtubes, shorter stems, zero saddle to bar drop etc. Hi end frames were on the other hand exactly what pro riders had.

Nowadays amateur riders want to feel more comfortable while looking like pros at the same time. Taller headtubes were made for these amateur riders. Riders who usually have not many thousands kms on their bike, have not the proper flexibility, rarely ride at the dropbars etc etc. These people could also ride a trekking bike but they prefer looking pro although they have nothing to do with competitive cycling.

_________________
Wilier Cento Uno
Colnago Master X-light
Wilier 18carati

This is what I hate about cycling...narrow minded arrogance. Its rife.

Not liking certain frame geometry is fine, but whats the problem that you feel the need to ridicule other less capable riders than yourself? Im 28 years old with a history of lower back problems. Im not as flexible as I used to be so I choose to ride a current Cervelo R3 with the tall head tube. Sure I could have bought some "trekking bike" that fits, but youre really missing the point that less flexible riders still want a high performance, lightweight package even if they arent as fast as the pros or even you for that matter. I dont want a bike that looks like a tour bike, in fact every time I look at my Cervelo I wish it had stickers I could peel off.

I dont think amateur riders should be forced upon a heavy outdated trekking bike with eyelets and rack mounts they will never use just to appease some pretentious dickhead like yourself. Apologies in advance to other users of this forum for my uncouth choice of works but Im sick of riding amongst people like you.

.Its' not stirring the pot ,I think it will be ashame if we all end up having a limited choice of true racing bikes.
and It's good to get your views out there. I ride a custom guru . You have seen it , It's in the introduce yourself section .artrays guru and wildlife .

To me the answer is simple, standard geo (some call it Pro), gran fondo geo, and touring geo (longer stays, tallish headtubes).
I see the biggest problem being bike fitters. You cant really blame the consumer but you can blame those that are supposed to help get the consumer positioned properly.
Ive even heard shop employees tell ppl they dont want a road bike because they hurt the arms, shoulders and neck too much. yeah, lets keep ppl off the most efficient machine on the road, that sounds like a good idea. however, if they were relying on contemporary fitters maybe he was right.

_________________
The word "Brifter" should be banned.
Casati Vola SLi- viewtopic.php?f=10&t=108931" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First of all just relax and read my post again....
I am also an amateur rider myself and certainly not a pro at all. I am just criticizing marketing that makes a lot of people loving the idea they look like pros while they (some of them) could be much happier riding different geometry bikes. That's all.

_________________
Wilier Cento Uno
Colnago Master X-light
Wilier 18carati

If you want something different, look at Argon18 bikes, they have a neat way to deal with the need of he taller headtube and not have a large amount of spacers. Pretty slick design.

HUMP

_________________
Why are the best things in life always the ones you start last?

Some food for thought for those obsessed with slammed stems and ridiculously short head tubes suited to short riders

" For another thing, Horner rides a taller head tube than Trek’s “pro” geometry that the company calls H1. H2 features a head tube that’s 3cm taller than H1 geometry. A 56cm Madone 6.9 SSL in the H2 geometry has a 17cm head tube. (The reach is also about .5cm shorter.)

In fairness, Horner isn’t alone on the team in riding the H2 geometry. Five riders, including 27-year-old Matt Busche, use the H2 bikes.

“It is a lot about cosmetics, but it is also structurally stronger not having a big stack of spacers beneath the stem,” said Trek team liaison Jordan Roessingh."

It IS about how you fit on the bike, and in the peleton these days quite a few pros are riding longer head tubes because of their particular fit.

_________________
Ozrider - Western Australia
Parlee Z5 XL 2011 (6055g/13.32lbs) Raleigh RC Ltd 2008 (7.6kg) Reynolds 653 Custom 1990 (9.8kg, now 8.8kg)
The accumulation of marginal gains is what makes the difference between winning and losing

"Some food for thought for those obsessed with slammed stems and ridiculously short head tubes suited to short riders"

Im Not short .I am 6ft tall. Im more comfortable in a more aero postion. Its a question of the position you ride best in and your athletic agility, not your height. If you cannot get aero it does not mean the bike is suited for short riders, It Just means one man rides lower than another.

So, artray, what's you saddle height (from BB) and your saddle to bar drop?

Check my bike out . Its up on the introduce yourself section . artrays guru and wildlife.

Was my question too complex or what? Just to make myself more clear: I was not asking for pictures of your bike, my question was about two measurements.