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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:05 am 
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Posts: 335
Razor wrote:
jbf wrote:
prendrefeu wrote:
You guys do realize that there are more than a few folks on here who have built BHS hubs + CX Ray + 340 rims and have been riding them for 1,000's of kms already, right?

Yes, and I've heard lots of complaints from several of them. I am currently riding a 340 on the front, 28H 2X. I built it last year and has held up fine. As an amateur wheel builder I put alot of time into my builds, so verification from the 195 lb OP is the best verification I can find if the mis-matched tensions of the BHS rear hub mate to the low tension 340 rim. My guess is that if built with care, it will hold up fine.


I have the exact same hubs, spokes, 24/28, alloy nipples but laced to Nio30's. They roll really nice when up to speed, very fast and smooth feeling. I have the exact same lacing, rim, spoke/spoke count, nipple configuration but laced to Tune Mig 70/Mag 180. Both wheels feel stiff laterally, I am 170 and mash big gears.

The biggest issue I have with the BHS hubs (I am assuming it is a hub issue considering all other things being equal to my Tune built wheels), is that they accelerate nicely in low climbing gears but if I am cruising along at say 23mph and apply pedal force to increase speed, they feel sluggish initially but ok a few strokes later. Annoying more than anything. My Tune don't suffer this effect at all, maybe it is the Tune bearings that are the difference. I have some old Real-Design Supersonics, they are better than the BHS hubs in this regard even though the rims are heavier. Not sure what the deal is but I am happy with the BHS wheels as my back up/rain/crit wheels.

Hi Razor, which BHS rear hub are you using ...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:59 am 
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Posts: 249
KLabs wrote:
Razor wrote:
jbf wrote:
prendrefeu wrote:
You guys do realize that there are more than a few folks on here who have built BHS hubs + CX Ray + 340 rims and have been riding them for 1,000's of kms already, right?

Yes, and I've heard lots of complaints from several of them. I am currently riding a 340 on the front, 28H 2X. I built it last year and has held up fine. As an amateur wheel builder I put alot of time into my builds, so verification from the 195 lb OP is the best verification I can find if the mis-matched tensions of the BHS rear hub mate to the low tension 340 rim. My guess is that if built with care, it will hold up fine.


I have the exact same hubs, spokes, 24/28, alloy nipples but laced to Nio30's. They roll really nice when up to speed, very fast and smooth feeling. I have the exact same lacing, rim, spoke/spoke count, nipple configuration but laced to Tune Mig 70/Mag 180. Both wheels feel stiff laterally, I am 170 and mash big gears.

The biggest issue I have with the BHS hubs (I am assuming it is a hub issue considering all other things being equal to my Tune built wheels), is that they accelerate nicely in low climbing gears but if I am cruising along at say 23mph and apply pedal force to increase speed, they feel sluggish initially but ok a few strokes later. Annoying more than anything. My Tune don't suffer this effect at all, maybe it is the Tune bearings that are the difference. I have some old Real-Design Supersonics, they are better than the BHS hubs in this regard even though the rims are heavier. Not sure what the deal is but I am happy with the BHS wheels as my back up/rain/crit wheels.

Hi Razor, which BHS rear hub are you using ...


SuperLight Front Hub (silver)- 78 Grams (correction, my front hub is 20h not 24)
SuperLight Rear Hub (silver)- 211 grams (28h)

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Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:59 am 


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:04 pm 
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snowstorm, where are you..............


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:12 pm 
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tigoose wrote:
snowstorm, where are you..............


Maybe stuck in one, or just out riding? Last login was Mar 15, so you could be waiting a while...

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:05 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am
Posts: 335
Razor wrote:
KLabs wrote:
Razor wrote:
jbf wrote:
prendrefeu wrote:
You guys do realize that there are more than a few folks on here who have built BHS hubs + CX Ray + 340 rims and have been riding them for 1,000's of kms already, right?

Yes, and I've heard lots of complaints from several of them. I am currently riding a 340 on the front, 28H 2X. I built it last year and has held up fine. As an amateur wheel builder I put alot of time into my builds, so verification from the 195 lb OP is the best verification I can find if the mis-matched tensions of the BHS rear hub mate to the low tension 340 rim. My guess is that if built with care, it will hold up fine.


I have the exact same hubs, spokes, 24/28, alloy nipples but laced to Nio30's. They roll really nice when up to speed, very fast and smooth feeling. I have the exact same lacing, rim, spoke/spoke count, nipple configuration but laced to Tune Mig 70/Mag 180. Both wheels feel stiff laterally, I am 170 and mash big gears.

The biggest issue I have with the BHS hubs (I am assuming it is a hub issue considering all other things being equal to my Tune built wheels), is that they accelerate nicely in low climbing gears but if I am cruising along at say 23mph and apply pedal force to increase speed, they feel sluggish initially but ok a few strokes later. Annoying more than anything. My Tune don't suffer this effect at all, maybe it is the Tune bearings that are the difference. I have some old Real-Design Supersonics, they are better than the BHS hubs in this regard even though the rims are heavier. Not sure what the deal is but I am happy with the BHS wheels as my back up/rain/crit wheels.

Hi Razor, which BHS rear hub are you using ...


SuperLight Front Hub (silver)- 78 Grams (correction, my front hub is 20h not 24)
SuperLight Rear Hub (silver)- 211 grams (28h)

Maybe the Enduro bearings are not as good as people say they are or are there other factors involved?

A couple of questions ...
Is it better to control the torque effects through DS or NDS?
How much does bracing angle affect lateral stiffness?
How much does spoke (DS/NDS) crossing control lateral stiffness and torque effects?

thanks and all opinions are welcome


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:59 am 
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Posts: 292
^ You said ALL opinions so here's MHO.

1) It is better to control torque through DS just because it takes hub torsional stiffness out of the equation. However most hubs will handle it easily. The ones to watch out for are very light ones with thin walls and ones that are composite with carbon barrels and aluminium flanges, that sort of thing. The other thing to consider is that NDS flanges tend to be small and bigger is better. That said I believe I read here that someone has laced a BHS hub that way and they have small NDS flanges. I don't know how successful it was.

2) Bracing angle affects wheel stiffness enormously. However right side flange distance is a function of the 130 hub spacing and the cassette width so they don't vary much from the extremes of 16.5 to 19.5. You wont fit an 11 speed to anything over ~18. I put one on a Dati recently. It was 19mm but I had to shim it.
So the right flange is closely spaced and you cant do anything about that but the left flange can be anything from ~30 to ~50. The wider the spacing the lower the NDS spoke tension. If you have insufficient spoke tension the spokes may completely detension as they pass around the bottom of the wheel. This condition aggravates fatigue and spokes will brake early. What an acceptable minimum tension is I cant tell you, but it depends on all those things that effect spoke stretching including all up wheel load, number of spokes, gauge of spokes, rim stiffness. If you lace a wheel 16:8 (triplets) you can get the best out of wide NDS flange spacing with just about even spoke tensions on all 24 spokes. (24 is the only non proprietary number that is a multiple of 3). If you need more spokes than 24 then you should look for the narrowest flange spacing consistent with acceptable minimum lateral stiffness, and choose a rim that can take the tension required on the DS to keep the NDS tension above minimum.

3) Different crossing numbers have a small but insignificant effect on lateral stiffness. However if the choice is between any crossing and no crossings the difference is small but significant. Its about the same as half the difference between radial lacing heads in or radial lacing heads out. You could run some numbers through a spoke calculator to get a feel for it. As far as torque effects are concerned the closer the spokes are to tangential to the flange the better. Conventional wisdom says that for 12 spokes 2x is best, for 14 2x or 3x, and for 16 3x. 1x is unnecessarily stressful on rims and flanges if its transferring torque. Whether or not it gives a squishy response I don't know.

With respect to the above, that is just how I understand it. I think there are many wheels being built today that wont last the distance because NDS spoke tension is insufficient or the DS tension is too great but I don't have definitive info . Come back in 12 months and ask how all the Stans 340 wheels are faring. I expect a mixed bag of cracks around nipple holes and broken NDS spokes but as I said I don't really know.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:33 am 
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Posts: 335
BobSantini wrote:
^ You said ALL opinions so here's MHO.

1) It is better to control torque through DS just because it takes hub torsional stiffness out of the equation. However most hubs will handle it easily. The ones to watch out for are very light ones with thin walls and ones that are composite with carbon barrels and aluminium flanges, that sort of thing. The other thing to consider is that NDS flanges tend to be small and bigger is better. That said I believe I read here that someone has laced a BHS hub that way and they have small NDS flanges. I don't know how successful it was.

2) Bracing angle affects wheel stiffness enormously. However right side flange distance is a function of the 130 hub spacing and the cassette width so they don't vary much from the extremes of 16.5 to 19.5. You wont fit an 11 speed to anything over ~18. I put one on a Dati recently. It was 19mm but I had to shim it.
So the right flange is closely spaced and you cant do anything about that but the left flange can be anything from ~30 to ~50. The wider the spacing the lower the NDS spoke tension. If you have insufficient spoke tension the spokes may completely detension as they pass around the bottom of the wheel. This condition aggravates fatigue and spokes will brake early. What an acceptable minimum tension is I cant tell you, but it depends on all those things that effect spoke stretching including all up wheel load, number of spokes, gauge of spokes, rim stiffness. If you lace a wheel 16:8 (triplets) you can get the best out of wide NDS flange spacing with just about even spoke tensions on all 24 spokes. (24 is the only non proprietary number that is a multiple of 3). If you need more spokes than 24 then you should look for the narrowest flange spacing consistent with acceptable minimum lateral stiffness, and choose a rim that can take the tension required on the DS to keep the NDS tension above minimum.

3) Different crossing numbers have a small but insignificant effect on lateral stiffness. However if the choice is between any crossing and no crossings the difference is small but significant. Its about the same as half the difference between radial lacing heads in or radial lacing heads out. You could run some numbers through a spoke calculator to get a feel for it. As far as torque effects are concerned the closer the spokes are to tangential to the flange the better. Conventional wisdom says that for 12 spokes 2x is best, for 14 2x or 3x, and for 16 3x. 1x is unnecessarily stressful on rims and flanges if its transferring torque. Whether or not it gives a squishy response I don't know.

With respect to the above, that is just how I understand it. I think there are many wheels being built today that wont last the distance because NDS spoke tension is insufficient or the DS tension is too great but I don't have definitive info . Come back in 12 months and ask how all the Stans 340 wheels are faring. I expect a mixed bag of cracks around nipple holes and broken NDS spokes but as I said I don't really know.

Hi BobSantini, thanks so much, that is terrific info, and if I may ask a couple more questions ...

With a triplet would you do a 3xDS, 1xNDS or 3xDS, Radial NDS ... and do you like this build compared to a traditional build re lateral stiffness, wheel elasticity, wheel strength?

If you were doing a 32H build would you consider lacing it 4xDS, 2xNDS. The reason I ask is because apparently this lacing allows for the DS/NDS spoke tensions to be equal (or very close to it) and is very strong but with some weight penalty ... do you know if this is correct?

Also, some are doing conventional builds, with conventional hubs, for 24H/28H with Radial DS, 2x/3x NDS and using the bracing angle on the NDS to control torque effects ... does that seem reasonable.

thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:50 am 
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Posts: 292
KLabs wrote:
Hi BobSantini, thanks so much, that is terrific info, and if I may ask a couple more questions ...

With a triplet would you do a 3xDS, 1xNDS or 3xDS, Radial NDS ... and do you like this build compared to a traditional build re lateral stiffness, wheel elasticity, wheel strength?

If you were doing a 32H build would you consider lacing it 4xDS, 2xNDS. The reason I ask is because apparently this lacing allows for the DS/NDS spoke tensions to be equal (or very close to it) and is very strong but with some weight penalty ... do you know if this is correct?

Also, some are doing conventional builds, with conventional hubs, for 24H/28H with Radial DS, 2x/3x NDS and using the bracing angle on the NDS to control torque effects ... does that seem reasonable.

thanks

For the triplet radial NDS will very likely be ok but 1x is marginally kinder to the hub. Take your pick. Check that radial lacing is ok with the hub manufacturer.

I don't see how 4x DS and 2x NDS can possibly equalise spoke tension. Spoke tension is a function of the lateral bracing angle and that is barely affected by number of crossings and that tiny effect is in the reverse sense of what you want.

You can use the NDS for torque transfer for sure but the bracing angle has nothing to do with that. The only advantage that I can see in doing it that way is that you could lace the right side all heads in either radial or one cross thus improving the bracing angle. It would make an appreciable difference to lateral stiffness and very slightly ameliorate the tension disparity.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:58 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
1x on the NDS has more to do with the stress in the flange than is does torque transfer. With the typically small NDS flanges 1x is going to do little.

By crossing the spokes you are trying to pull the spoke "through" the flange a bit more rather than straight out. Basically you end up with more material trying to resist the spoke force so less likely to crack a flange (yes I have seen this on radial spoked wheels). Some hubs (less these days) will not allow radial spoking for fear of cracking flanges with less meat around the spokes.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:49 am
Posts: 209
Possibly an easy question, but I'm not sure -- the trick is the high flanges (to keep spoke length similar and lacing the same) and I do want the rim color to match.

That said, I'd love recommendations on what rim to buy and where to get it to replace the front of this wheelset: http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBC ... spid=64381

Took a big rock to the front rim the other week, and the ding in the sidewall is noticeable, so I don't think it's safe to ride on any more.

Suggestions? Oh, and my criteria are: sturdy, and relatively cheap.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:36 am 
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Location: Pedal Square
twoangstroms: at your current rim depth of 28mm KinLin XR-270 and XR-300 come to mind.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:00 pm 
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Thanks! Best places to order one? I'm in the western US.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:32 am 
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Fairwheel bikes

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:04 pm 
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Posts: 335
BobSantini wrote:
KLabs wrote:
Hi BobSantini, thanks so much, that is terrific info, and if I may ask a couple more questions ...

With a triplet would you do a 3xDS, 1xNDS or 3xDS, Radial NDS ... and do you like this build compared to a traditional build re lateral stiffness, wheel elasticity, wheel strength?

If you were doing a 32H build would you consider lacing it 4xDS, 2xNDS. The reason I ask is because apparently this lacing allows for the DS/NDS spoke tensions to be equal (or very close to it) and is very strong but with some weight penalty ... do you know if this is correct?

Also, some are doing conventional builds, with conventional hubs, for 24H/28H with Radial DS, 2x/3x NDS and using the bracing angle on the NDS to control torque effects ... does that seem reasonable.

thanks

For the triplet radial NDS will very likely be ok but 1x is marginally kinder to the hub. Take your pick. Check that radial lacing is ok with the hub manufacturer.

I don't see how 4x DS and 2x NDS can possibly equalise spoke tension. Spoke tension is a function of the lateral bracing angle and that is barely affected by number of crossings and that tiny effect is in the reverse sense of what you want.

You can use the NDS for torque transfer for sure but the bracing angle has nothing to do with that. The only advantage that I can see in doing it that way is that you could lace the right side all heads in either radial or one cross thus improving the bracing angle. It would make an appreciable difference to lateral stiffness and very slightly ameliorate the tension disparity.

Hi BobSantini, that actually makes it quite interesting. So is the following right ...

... For a wide flanged Triplet hub 16H/DS and 8H/NDS with 3xDS, and Radial NDS/HeadsIn. The torque is controlled by the DS and lateral stiffness is controlled by the NDS with some bracing assistance by the DS with 8 HeadsIn spokes. DS/NDS spoke tension are essentially equal. Does the high DS spoke tension help the DS's ability to control torque?

... For a normal flanged hub 12H/DS and 12H/NDS with Radial DS/HeadsIn or 1xDS/HeadsIn and 2xNDS. The torque is controlled by the NDS and lateral stiffness is controlled by the NDS but the DS/HeadsIn bracing angle is a little better than Triplet with 12 HeadsIn spokes. DS spoke tension higher than NDS. Does the lower NDS spoke tension affect the NDS's ability to control torque?

... For a normal flanged hub 14H/DS and 14H/NDS with Radial DS/HeadsIn or 1xDS/HeadsIn and 3xNDS. The torque is controlled by the NDS and lateral stiffness is controlled by the NDS but the DS/HeadsIn bracing angle is a little better than Triplet with 14 HeadsIn spokes. DS spoke tension higher than NDS. Does the lower NDS spoke tension affect the NDS's ability to control torque?

Now if I have this right, which is better :-)


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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:04 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:33 am 
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Hi BobSantini or anybody, does the ^^^ sound right ... thanks


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