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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:48 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Posts: 180
I'm just asking because it seems ... a lot of spokes. I use 32h front&rear on my park bike, and the wheels can take 2m drops :)

I also didn't go with the min amount of spokes on my gravel wheelset - I used 28 instead of 24 in the rear - because I wanted them to be reliable!

And I use 34/32 gearing and 25mm tires on my (6.7kg) road bike, so I'm definitely not in the looks-over-functionality camp.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:38 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:39 pm
Posts: 126
Location: Norway
This might be a stupid question or two, but I am new to wheelbuilding, so please bear with me.

I have bought three sets of the FlySports 40x27mm carbon tubulars from ebay seller carbon-cycle and plan to get these built with som BHS hubs and, well, spokes and nipples :) ... but haven't quite decided on spoke pattern and spokes yet. The plan is to thread up the wheels and hand them over to a builder for tensioning and finishing.

Can I use the ERD measurement supplied by the manufacturer directly in a spoke length calculator, or do I need to measure myself with a nipple in the spoke hole?

Also, suggestions on spoke pattern and spokes are welcome. The rims are 20/24h, the hubs are BHS SLF85W and SL210. I was thinking radial up front and 2 or 3x DS and radial NDS perhaps. Are CX-rays the only way to go? I am not overly price sensitive, but wouldn't mind going for something cheaper if it's just as good.


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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:38 am 


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:46 am 
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Posts: 167
jo.k wrote:
The plan is to thread up the wheels and hand them over to a builder for tensioning and finishing.


I am curious why people do this. Does it save money or do you not have a truing stand? The lacing is the trivial part; building the wheel is the tensioning and truing.

jo.k wrote:
Can I use the ERD measurement supplied by the manufacturer directly in a spoke length calculator, or do I need to measure myself with a nipple in the spoke hole?


You really want to measure them yourself, and since you have to order the spokes separately anyway, there is no cost savings here to be had by ordering all at once. Personally I would recommend using the round polyax nipple washers too, assuming they fit in the rim bed. Juat provides a nice interface for the nipples, though i am sure it will work without them (assuming they do not recommend some other washers be used). The polyax washers add 1.5mm (total) to the ERD.

jo.k wrote:
Also, suggestions on spoke pattern and spokes are welcome. The rims are 20/24h, the hubs are BHS SLF85W and SL210.


Radial front and 2x/2x or 2x/radial (ds/nds) would be the standard lacing patterns here. 3x probably won't work with 24 spokes, and no reason to deviate from the standard IMO. Slight stiffness advantage to radial NDS in rear, but 2x/2x is what I would do for overall wheel strength.

You don't have to use cx ray spokes. If you are not doing deep rims for aero -- and I assume you aren't since Farsports doesn't have data (to my knowledge) to show their rims are more or less aero than any other (e.g. shallower) rims -- then any round spoke will be just fine too. Sapim Laser, for example -- especially since you aren't doing the build :-) (cx-ray are easier to build with since you can easily see, and hence avoid, windup)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:50 am 
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Location: Norway
Thanks for your replies. I neither have a truing stand nor a tensiometer, and doing the lacing myself was suggested by the builder to save some time, as he could fit it in in-between and do it sooner. It was also his suggestion to source the spokes and nipples and deliver the laced wheels to him for truing and tensioning.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:11 am 
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Location: Norway
I might be a bit daft, but as you mention the polyax nipple washers add 1.5mm in total to the ERD, does this in effect mean that if I use the manufacturer's ERD of 559mm and add 1.5mm and then input a total ERD of 560.5 mm in a spoke length calculator to calculate the spoke lengths?

I have technical drawings of the BHS hubs. I assume PCD = pitch circle diameter = hub flange diameter?

Thanks again for any replies.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:07 pm 
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Yes, that is correct. In practice having spokes within 2mm shouldn't be a problem so adding the 1.5mm yo ERD is probably not absolutely required, but may as well. But don't use mfr ERD without measuring yourself. Very likely to be off -- probably especially with these carbon rims.

Flange diameter is not PCD, since the holes will be offset inside the overall flange diameter. Use PCD when calculating spoke length.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:54 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Sometimes flange diameter is used for PCD even when it is not. If doubt ask the seller.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:06 pm 
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Nevermind.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:17 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 1699
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I've posted before about building wheels 1x heads in on the DS to increase bracing angle. I think I am done with that experiment:

Image

This happened today during a double century, causing a DNF. There's 6 more cracks around the flange. I used this wheel last year and this year as the training set for my main bike. It probably had roughly 8000-10000 miles on it. I'm going back to 3x DS and 2x NDS (3x since these are 28h).
I'd rather break an NDS spoke periodically as its possible to ride with that (with some field truing, for which I carry a tiny emergency spoke wrench).

Hub is a BHS SL211.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:30 pm 
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I was always a bit skeptical about 1x heads in pattern long term as I am with all heads out radial patterns on the front or rear. Hub failure is not funny. I presume the tension you used was sensible 1200N or so. Thanks for posting not that I was ever tempted.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:03 am 
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eric wrote:
I've posted before about building wheels 1x heads in on the DS to increase bracing angle. I think I am done with that experiment:

This happened today during a double century, causing a DNF. There's 6 more cracks around the flange. I used this wheel last year and this year as the training set for my main bike. It probably had roughly 8000-10000 miles on it. I'm going back to 3x DS and 2x NDS (3x since these are 28h).
I'd rather break an NDS spoke periodically as its possible to ride with that (with some field truing, for which I carry a tiny emergency spoke wrench).

Hub is a BHS SL211.


Oh shit, i wish you are ok.

Thanks to share this, i was also temped to try this.
Also, can you speak about the bearing durability of the SL211, did you change these often? And for the the freehub body, have you changed it?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:43 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I was not in any danger. The worst thing that could have happened would have been the wheel going out of true suddenly on a descent, which would probably not locked the wheel just put on the brakes. When the flange let go it was just like breaking a spoke, and that's no problem. I'm used to it.

I've been using the SL211s since BHS started (3 years ago?) and have been beating them up pretty hard. I think I have had one bearing get a little rough, and it was not difficult to replace. The freehub bodies seem to be very durable for aluminium freehubs. They get gouged much less than other alu freehubs I have used. The SL210 has one slightly larger bearing (two 6903 and two 6803 vs one 6903 and three 6803) and slightly better DS flange spacing. I'm going to use that on the wheel to replace this one.

On a couple SL211s I have had the axle end caps come unscrewed. It causes a squeak and sometimes a slight amount of play at wheel. I've used loctite (#242) to keep them in place.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:38 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Eric have you tried building a stiffer wheel if spoke breakage is a big problem. what rims do you use? Maybe a higher spoke count or thicker spoke. Spoke breakage is no fun.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:30 pm 
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Location: McCall, ID
1x stress hub flanges in similar manner to radial seeing as that tiny cross doesn't really cause tension to cancel each other out. I'd bet that if that wheel was laced 2x the hub flange failure wouldn't have happened.

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Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:30 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:10 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 1699
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
bm0p700f- xr270s, 20f, 28r. Lasers with Race on the DS. I'm only 145 lbs but something about my pedaling style, plus standing a lot on climbs, doing lots of climbing and lots of steep climbs gives my rear wheels a hard life.

That's why I decided to build wheels again, to figure out what can live the longest under me. This wheel made it about a year and a half which is better than many built by the LBS or factory.

Zen- you're right about the 2x. That's why I am calling an end to my 1x DS experiments.

The replacement is going to be 2x all around using BHS's OC445 offset XR270 clone. According to spokecalc it changes the NDS tension from 47% to 57% of DS.


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