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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:21 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:12 am
Posts: 157
marcopantani wrote:
Wont´t be able to measure myself since I want to order spokes and rims from the same place to save money on shipping. There is a SLF85W front hub which has about the same center to flange width as SLF71w but larger bearings. Are larger bearings better for durability?


An, didn't realize/remember the slf71 was wide. I think the width will be most significant. Yes, larger bearings should be more durable but I personally have not had any issues with front hub bearings, so I would not worry too much about that.

Not measuring just means you risk getting the wrong size spokes. The worst is realizing that after you have spent 3 hours on the wheel and the spokes have bottomed out before they are up to tension, so at least do yourself a favor and measure them before your build so you can return the spokes if they differ significantly from claimed.

Quote:

The thicker Race spokes should be stronger than Lasers no? Do you mean it would be sufficient with Lasers all round?


The thicker Race spokes are actually weaker (1300 N/mm2 vs 1500 for Laser). They are, however, stiffer spokes. One (other) reason people like to use them over Lasers is that Lasers have more extreme windup. But you can build carefully to remove windup. On my most recent build I used little tape "flags" on the spokes so I could see the windup (and unwind them). That seemed to work really well. On my own wheels I have just felt for windup and fixed any issues after a few rides, but these were for someone else so I wanted to be as sure as possible that the spokes were not going to unwind. Anyway, I assume weight is a driving factor here which is why I suggest Lasers (and lower spoke count).

Hopefully someone that has these rims built can weigh in, as I don't want to lead you to under-building! My last rim-brake alloy wheels were 20/28 Kinlin XR300; deeper rim, but also narrower and rear was plenty stiff for sure (I weighed 180lbs when I was using those).

Quote:
Have read on the Stans forum that the new Alpha 340 won´t need nipple washers because of the thicker spoke bed, but should maybe consider that anyway to be safe.
http://messageboard.notubes.com/viewtop ... f=2&t=3390


I would do it anyway, because it strengthens and simplifies build with virtually no weight (or significant $$) cost. I build all my wheels now with the round polyax washers. It may be placebo, but I have had issues with burrs or rough spoke beds breaking alloy nipples in the past.


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Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:21 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:13 pm 
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Formerly known as wassertreter

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
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Location: Pedal Square
Hey thanks everyone weighing in on vintage Mavic tubs. Maybe I'll just get a 36h 3x all around Reflex build. I have a soft spot for matching lacing, and this would complement my 36h 3x Open Pro wheelset nicely.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:56 pm 
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Quote:
The thicker Race spokes are actually weaker (1300 N/mm2 vs 1500 for Laser). They are, however, stiffer spokes. One (other) reason people like to use them over Lasers is that Lasers have more extreme windup. But you can build carefully to remove windup. On my most recent build I used little tape "flags" on the spokes so I could see the windup (and unwind them). That seemed to work really well. On my own wheels I have just felt for windup and fixed any issues after a few rides, but these were for someone else so I wanted to be as sure as possible that the spokes were not going to unwind. Anyway, I assume weight is a driving factor here which is why I suggest Lasers (and lower spoke count).


I don't think this correct because you are not taking the cross-sectional area of the spokes into consideration. The steel in the Laser spokes is stronger because of the way the thinner spokes are work hardened but the larger cross-sectional area of Race spokes makes them stronger overall.

Race = 2.545 mm2 x 1300 N/mm2 = 3308.5 N
Laser = 1.767 mm2 x 1500 N/mm2 = 2650.5 N

EDIT:

They're both 2.0mm at the elbow where they are liable to break due to the fatigue cycle though so probably equal in terms of longevity.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:46 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:12 am
Posts: 157
Interesting. Your math does look good! Ok, I stand corrected (a theme for me lately). I had always heard they were stronger, but it makes sense that they are simply stronger per mm2. As you note, these are all 2.0 at the places where spokes normally break, so I think generally the Laser is a nice weight-saving upgrade with little cost or effective strength difference.

Thanks for correction!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:11 pm 
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Formerly known as wassertreter

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Location: Pedal Square
Still pondering one or two wheel builds for this year.

One that I've been mulling over for a long time is a 18 front radial / 27 rear 2:1 build. 36h hubs would lend themselves to that. So my question is, do you think Hope hubs would work for that? They are not spec'd for radial, but I'd only use half the spokes anyway. Rear NDS would be radial too, obviously, with 3x on the DS. Affordable 36h hubs in nice colours are few and far between.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:58 pm 
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bombertodd wrote:
Zig, with your wheel addiction I think you should learn to build your own wheels.

As Eric mentioned:
eric wrote:
One of the best things about building your own wheels is that you know who to blame for the screwups.


He's 100% correct. I'm still new to wheel building compared to people like Eric, but building wheels has been an amazing experience. I get exactly what I want (rim, hub, spoke tension, etc....). I really think you would like building wheels and you'll save money instead of paying people to build them for you.



It's the one thing I haven't taken on yet for bike maintenance. As suggested, I just need to learn to do it myself and invest in some tools to take care of anything. I do bearings/lube maint etc, just no spokes/tensioning myself.

Seems like steep learning curve and takes time to be a good wheelbuilder.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:23 am
Posts: 304
I actually found it quite easy if you take your time. I noticed my first wheels were not stress relieved as good as they should be and required proper tensioning after a few miles. I'm getting better now. Most of my wheels never need re-tensioning/truing after I build them unless a pothole or something smashes them. Even the first wheels I built that needed help after the first rides are rock solid after a couple times of re-tensioning. Wheelbuilding is more scary than I think many people make it out to be. Also there are few experts floating around this forum that will answer all questions.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 1631
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
There's a number of good guides on the internet. Also Jobst Brandt's book explains the engineering theory and practical points of wheel building. It's not difficult to read at all.

I think that riders who ride a lot should at least be able to true wheels. Besides being able to true your own wheels at home, when you break a spoke on a ride you can get the wheel true enough so it doesn't rub on the brake/frame/fork and finish the ride. Even if you never need it someone you ride with will. I recently did that for a multiple world champion.

wassertreter- The problem with radial spoking hubs with a lot of spokes is that the holes weaken the flange. I think that's true even if you're only using half of them.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:28 am 
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wassertreter wrote:
Still pondering one or two wheel builds for this year.

One that I've been mulling over for a long time is a 18 front radial / 27 rear 2:1 build. 36h hubs would lend themselves to that. So my question is, do you think Hope hubs would work for that? They are not spec'd for radial, but I'd only use half the spokes anyway. Rear NDS would be radial too, obviously, with 3x on the DS. Affordable 36h hubs in nice colours are few and far between.

BikeHubStore had mentioned an 18:9 hub to match a centre drilled 27h SL23 but it looks like both have been removed from the site? Not sure if they've sold or just decided against offering them? They also have a couple of 18h front hubs.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:24 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:36 am
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Why not go with a 24 or 28 rear 2:1 build does it really have to be 27?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:15 am 
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Burgunder: yeah well the rim is already drilled for 18h, so I'm going to do nine intermediate holes. It's a bit of a project.
Here's a pic:
download/file.php?id=57611&mode=view

jooo: oh that would have been great, but I'm after matching hubs, and there neither seem to be any 36h ones on offer?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:55 am 
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Well BHS did mention a 27h rear so that would match the 18h front. Maybe you could email them?

Velo Orange offer a 36h rear hub that could match reasonably well with the silver 18h front from BHS http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/wheelsets-rims-hubs/hubs/vo-hi-lo-cassette-rear-hub.html

Novatec did or still do have a reasonably light 36h rear road hub but it may be hard to track down. I think this has also been re-branded by Velocity at some stage. Either of those would match well enough with a suitable Novatec front.

Chris King could also kind of match with an 18h R45 and 36h Classic.

Hope do an 18h front and a 36h rear RS MONO.

White industries do an 18h front and 36h rear T11.

Mack can do custom spoke count (so can Royce/Phil Wood but ewww heavy).


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:24 am 
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in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Novatec F172 for shimano or F272 are easy to come by in 36H I have several in silver and black.

When did a 310g Royce hub become heavy they have large 6001 NTN bearings which last an eternity unlike smaller bearing in lighter hubs. I think sometimes weight weenie folk need a reality check. The wheels I have planed using Royce hubs that are on order in custom drilling will weigh under 1300g hardly heavy.

Also if you do use a 2:1 lacing pattern you are better of going with a custom hub as the NDS flange on a proper 2:1 hub should be pushed out past 40mm to centre as that way you increase lateral stiffness. The Royce hubs I have ordered has the NDS centre flange to centre hub pushed out to 43mm and the DS centre flange to centre hub at 19.5mm. Tension balance will be a 90% if remember rightly.

The BHS 2:1 hubs are bitex hubs that are drilled differently but have the same dimesnions as the normal drilling version this is quite pointless.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:57 pm 
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bm0p700f, interesting. Most of the hubs mentioned are way over budget, though.

Do you think Ultegra 6800 hubs would be better suited to 2:1 lacing, for their smaller DS offset?

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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:57 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:05 pm 
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Posts: 73
Burgunder wrote:
Why not go with a 24 or 28 rear 2:1 build does it really have to be 27?



a 24 holes 2:1 already exist.... but you can't do a 28 holes with 2:1.

You need 2 spoke one side for 1 the other side so the number of spoke need to be divisable by 3.

28/3=9.3333
27/3=9

so you get 9 spoke NDS and 18 DS, basically one more spoke on NDS and 2 more on DS than a 24 spoke 2:1 wheel.

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