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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:16 pm
Posts: 166
So yeah, I have been riding my new rear wheel for a while now.

Everything is great. It went out of true in a couple of places on the first few rides, but I put that down the spokes bedding into the hub flanges; I didn't go mad on manually bending the spokes with my fingers into line, so bedding in may have been a little longer than it could have been.

The Tune Mag170 hub is an utter winner; rolls mega fast, looks great, polishes up lovely, sounds cool and feels good to ride.

I laced the wheel 12x12 2 cross, so the NDS is not super tight, but it seems to be holding fine. Tune state that the hub has a 100kg limit, which is low. Don't tell them, but I went up to 113kg on the DS to allow for an acceptable NDS tension.

Spokes are CX Ray, and the rim is a FarSports 38mm tubular.

Weigh in, with nipple washers is 568g. Rear wheel at 568g. Mental!

With DA9000 cassette and Vitt. CX3 it is still under 1kg.

Looking forward to building a super nice front wheel to match. Considering a Tune MIG45 if I can convince anyone to send me one...


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:01 am
Posts: 39
jockster wrote:
All good so far, as long as I use DT spokes. But what if I would like to bling up my wheel with some Sapim CX Rays? Round up? Base numbers on DT Aero lites? Different spoke calculator?


You can use the DT calculator as for Aerolites but specify 12mm nipples if you are using the Sapim 14mm. I like to correct lengths a bit shorter for front spokes and rear DS spokes.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:39 pm
Posts: 479
Location: DC
So I have built multiple bikes over time and it looks like it's time to learn building some wheels. This will be my first and also a budget build. My weight hoovers anywhere between 158 lbs - 165 lbs, depending on time of the year. I'm not hard on wheels either. Right now I have a set of the original Neuvation wheels, the R series 16/20 spokes as well as a set of nicer Dura Ace 7900 C24 wheels. Here is what I was thinking for this build:

Rims: H Plus Son Rims 20 front and 24 rear spoke count.
Front Hub: BHS SLF71W - http://www.bikehubstore.com/SL71W-p/slf ... 1&CartID=0
Rear Hub: BHS SL210 SuperLight Rear Hub - http://www.bikehubstore.com/SL210-p/sl2 ... 1&CartID=0
Spokes: Thinking of going with Sapim CX-Ray. Should I consider anything else?
Nipples: Sapim nipples. Brass or Alu?

I did some poking around with various spoke calculators and this is what I came up with. I would really appreciate if someone could confirm my findings:

Front wheel: 20 spokes - radial lacing - 279.0mm spoke lenght
Rear wheel: 24 spokes - 2x lacing - DS 284.7mm spokes, NDS 289.2mm spokes

Seems that spoke lengths are right in between what's actually available. I assume one should always go with a longer option rathen than shorter, no?

If they can be built into 1500 gr. wheels set I'll be happy. Thanks for the help!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:11 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 87
I just had a look at the spocalc excel sheet and noticed the tension ratio chart. If i get 100% L/R ratio - does that mean totally even spoke tension on left/right ratio, or that all tension is on the left side?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:08 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:01 am
Posts: 39
Hey Jockster - I can't reply to your PM but I can confirm everything in your message.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:42 am 
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Posts: 1037
Location: Slovenia---that forest land
just for INFO: rim Campagnolo EURUS two way fit weights 462g

:D

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Location: McCall, ID
@plpete- I think that the SL23 from Pacenti is a better rim than the Archetype. It's lighter, wider, and deeper while still being just as rigid. The spoke count sounds good for your weight though. Regarding the nipples I'd go brass on the rear drive side and alloy everywhere else.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:15 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 2554
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
I have never found an issue with alloy nipples on the DS rear.

Jackster tension ratio is just that tension ratio left to right. so 100% is same tension left to right. Still I have built many a stable rear wheel with a tension ratio of 44%. You just have to be selective about who you do that for. That is part of the art of wheelbuilding knowing where the limits are.

As for bedding in spokes OwenJames a proper stress relieving process should prevent any loosening of spokes as that is what causes them to go out of true. Bringing the spoke up to full tension will straighten the spokes out. I have built wheels with bending the spokes and without bending at the flanges, and I have found it make no difference at all. what does make a difference is proper stress relieving, neglect that and on the first ride there will be a tension drop on some spokes and it goes out of true. When building even with race or thicker spokes when at 4/5 tension I do several rounds of grasping pairs of spokes until there is no further tension drop. If I did not do that then on the first ride the wheels would de stress and the tension would drop and I would get an unhappy call from the customer.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:45 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 87
bm0p700f wrote:
Jackster tension ratio is just that tension ratio left to right. so 100% is same tension left to right. Still I have built many a stable rear wheel with a tension ratio of 44%. You just have to be selective about who you do that for. That is part of the art of wheelbuilding knowing where the limits are.



Thank you very much for making this clearer to me.

Another question - does it make sense to use nipple washers on the nipple seat when building on a carbon rim?
Or are washers only for metal-on-metal applications?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:21 pm 
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Location: Slovenia---that forest land
For washers i think the best is to contact manufacturer of the rim.

Newer taiwan rims mostly dont need washers (internal or externail nipples)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:59 am 
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Posts: 166
bm0p700f wrote:
As for bedding in spokes OwenJames a proper stress relieving process should prevent any loosening of spokes as that is what causes them to go out of true. Bringing the spoke up to full tension will straighten the spokes out. I have built wheels with bending the spokes and without bending at the flanges, and I have found it make no difference at all. what does make a difference is proper stress relieving, neglect that and on the first ride there will be a tension drop on some spokes and it goes out of true. When building even with race or thicker spokes when at 4/5 tension I do several rounds of grasping pairs of spokes until there is no further tension drop. If I did not do that then on the first ride the wheels would de stress and the tension would drop and I would get an unhappy call from the customer.


Well yeah, I know. I am properly OCD about my bike though, so when I say it went out of true, I am talking about 0.2mm here.

Interested though; as you are building wheels for customers, if you do get any back (and you must get some coming back, surely?) what kind of amount of out-of-true do they complain about? I would imagine you do get some people like me who get shirty if their wheels are even slightly out...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:23 am
Posts: 440
OwenJames, I'm not a guru wheel builder but I've built a couple sets and trued dozens of wheels. I've found focusing more on even tension will make the wheel stay true longer than focusing on a making a true wheel. I make the wheel as even tension and true as possible and finish the wheel with even tensioning which might make the wheel true within +-1mm. I've never had a problem with this method yet (knock on wood). In the older days before I owned a tensiometer I tried to get them as true as possible and a few rides later they were a little tweaked.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:16 pm
Posts: 166
Well yeah, that is how it works!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
0.2mm is not not out of true by any standard. When I build wheels I shoot for 0.1mm lateral true and for radial it will depend on the rim. Some rim alloy radial true with in 0.2mm and still have even tensions, others will vary by up to 0.5mm (velocity A23). Getting tension as even as the rim allows is more important though than getting the wheel as perfectly round and straight as possible. Uneven spoke tension shortens spoke life but if a wheel has perfectly even tension it would be badly out of shape. I suppose one of the arts of wheel building is knowing where the balance is.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:21 pm 
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Posts: 166
Indeed. I have built quite a few road wheels now and feel that it is very much an artistic endeavour, as much as it is a straight out technical one. Like anything artistic, it is wonderfully subjective, and impossible to truly know when to stop.


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