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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:46 am
Posts: 8
@KLabs- Thanks for all of the quality links. I think the Roues Artisanales and Sheldon Brown ones are my favorite.

Great info KLabs!

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Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:21 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:13 pm 
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I've been lurking around here and have appreciated all of the wisdom that's been posted. I was hoping you guys could help me out with some advice on a new front wheel. First some background:

I'm 185 lbs, though I tend to fluctuate betwen 175 and 185 depending on the time of year. I don't have any ambitions to race, but I do appreciate performance, and I don't mind investing in some nice gear if it will last me a long time. I do a lot of climbing in the Bay Area.


-I had talked to a shop a while ago and they recommended an Alchemy ELF laced to a Hed C2 with Sapim CX-Rays. I've seen some people say that that's not the best setup for someone over 165 lbs though. Should I be looking at something else? Or, if that setup is a good one, how many spokes should I be looking for and is radial lacing OK?

-I have an urge to build the wheel myself, but I've only built one wheel years ago. It went great, but it was just a vanilla 3x 32h job. Is building a wheel with fewer (aero) spokes laced radially dramatically more difficult? Do I need a tensiometer or would I be fine with just a ts2.2 and spoke wrenches? I realize it would just be cheaper to have a shop build it, but I miss building things and would enjoy doing it if I can do a job at least comparable to a good shop.

Any insights would be greatly appreciated.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:00 pm 
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@orion- That sounds like an awesome build to me. I think the ELF is a great option for heavier riders simply because if the widely stanced flanges and bearings. Radial would be just fine too, just make sure to go elbows in/heads out.

This would be a great build for you to do though. Radial lacing is the simplest of all lacing patterns and since you've already built one set of wheels, you should be able to lace this one up no problem.

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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Yea, radial is easier. No thinking involved! I have to plan laced patterns out in my head.

I think a tensiometer is vital, especially with low spoke count wheels. The wheels I build now with one come out much better than the wheels I built back in the day without one. I'd go so far as to say to spend less on the hubs, using White or even BHS, so you can by the tensionmeter. It'll make all your wheels better for a lifetime.

# of spokes depends on how hard you are on wheels and how durable you want the wheels to be. I weigh 40 lbs less and I make my training rear wheels 28h because I am hard on rear wheels (steep climbs, lots of climbing, lots out of the saddle). If you don't break spokes you can get by with 24h if the rim is stiff.

You can use Lasers (or Race) round spokes for about $2/spoke savings. CXrays are flattened Lasers.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Location: Bay Area, CA
Hi, I have a couple questions for you all. I'm building my first wheelset - it's a 20/24 Kinlin XC 279 with CX-Rays, alloy nipples and BHS hubs. I'm lacing radial in front and 2x both sides on the rear. I've been trueing my own wheels for years and have read a number of posts in this thread as well as the Jobst Brandt book and tutorials from Lennard Zinn and Jim Langley. So I've been eager to try this myself. However I've run into a couple issues that I can't find good information about.

I'm starting with my front, and now that I have it all laced up (no tension yet) my rim is out of true by about 3mm and out of round by about 1mm. I think I may have inadvertently caused this as I was spinning the nipples on with a driver I hadn't noticed that a couple nipples had not seated in the rim - so I suspect they may have pulled the rim to one side. In any event I wanted to get some feedback before I continue. Should I proceed to tensioning knowing I can pull things straight later? Or is this just making things difficult for myself? Brandt seems to recommend starting with a true wheel and gradually & evenly building up tension. I'm wondering if I should just bite the bullet and disassemble, straighten the rim by hand, and then re-lace.

My other question, is the nipples are threaded just to the point where all threads are now inside the nipple and there's still a tiny bit of slack in the spokes. Brandon at BHS helped me choose spoke lengths using an online calculator however I am also aware that manufacturing variation in rims and spokes makes this an imperfect science. I'm a little concerned if no threads are showing now, will the nipples bottom out before I'm able to get the wheel properly tensioned? Or is this fairly typical and nothing to worry about?

Thanks for any input!


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 12:46 am 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I like to tighten the nipples in stages until the threads just disappear. That way I know they are all threaded the same amount. I don't worry too much about trueness at that point as there is little to no tension on the spokes yet (but they're close). It sounds like that's where you are.

Once the wheel starts getting tension its true will change. At that point I alternate tensioning and truing. Do too much tension without truing and it'll take a lot of adjustment to get true.

If you want to redo it, it's easy at this stage- back off the nipples until there's say 2mm of threads visible, then start tensioning again.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 6:18 pm 
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Location: Bay Area, CA
Thanks Eric, that was helpful. I spent most of the evening yesterday gradually building up tension and I was able to get things fairly true and round.

That said, it's a bit disconcerting how much pitch difference I'm finding from one spoke to the next. I'm not sure if it's because I had to pull things around since I was starting with a rim that wasn't true or round. I don't have a tensiometer yet (which I do plan to buy) but I can tell even without out it, that despite being fairly true and round now the tension is fairly inconsistant. I'm considering starting over to see if I can do a better job getting the nipples more evenly threaded.

Or perhaps I should put the front wheel aside and start on the less critical rear wheel to get more practice. I understand that nipples can take only so much threading and unthreading under tension. And the last thing I want is to worry about front wheel integrity on future rides.

BTW, I'm not having any luck finding tension specs for a 20h radial wheel. Any idea?


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:16 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I do 90-100 kgf for fronts. 120-130 (if the rim can handle 130) for the rear DS. The NDS comes out to whatever it comes out to, but if it's under 55-60 that's not enough.

I find front wheels easier to build because both sides are the same and the tension is lower than the DS.

If you have spokes that are tight and loose next to each other, you can loosen the tight spokes and tighten the loose ones.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:40 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:03 pm
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Location: Bay Area, CA
Awesome, thanks for the info. I'll try to balance things out a bit better while I'm waiting for the tensiometer (on order) to arrive.

I'll check with BHS for max tension specs on this rim. It sounds like this will be useful info when I start tensioning the rear DS. Thanks Eric!


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
I have built and ride wheels with NDS tension below 500N after a few thousand miles they are still fine. I do se Lasers though for such builds. I sed to worried anout low tension until I did this wheelset now having riden it for alot miles without incident I and more confident about doing this for other people now.

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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:57 pm 
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Posts: 14
Finally got around to building the Kinlin XR19W wheelset that I posted about earlier:

Front:
Kinlin XR19W 24h
24 Sapim Lasers, laced radial
24 Pillar brass nipples (red)
BHS SLF85W front hub

Rear:
Kinlin XR19W 28h
NDS: 14 Sapim Laser spokes, laced 2x
DS: 14 Sapim Race, laced 2x
28 Pillar brass nipples (red)
BHS SL211 rear hub

Final weight: 1418g

Couple of things I noticed:
1. This was my first build with an eyeletted rim. I'm a fan of eyelets. :)
2. I used Pillar hex-head brass nipples. Man, these things are so easy to work with. I really like being able to use the T-handle instead of a traditional spoke wrench.
3. The linseed oil kinda smells, but that's nothing compared to my college days where I used to actually drink this stuff (flaxseed oil)!

Now I just gotta wait 3 days for the linseed oil to dry.

Bob

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:17 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:49 am
Posts: 14
I let the linseed oil dry for 4+ days and went for my first ride on the XR19W build.

First impressions: Very nice! I'm really impressed with how they ride. BHS hubs are very smooth and these things were a piece of cake to handle in today's wind. They feel more vertically compliant than my Reynolds Attacks (32mm deep carbon). Ie, less road chatter being transmitted to the rider. I tried to give them a little bit of everything today (hills, hard cornering, sprints). They stayed completely true. I think the 24/28 hole count should be pretty sturdy at my weight (about 73kg).

Time to quit my day job and build these full time?? ;-)

Bob


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:38 am 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
I am not sure how any wheel feels more vertically complaint than another. Compliance implies delfection. the radial stiffnes of any wheel is so high that vertical deflection is not detectable by a human when riding. You maybe trying to describe something else but I am not sure what from your description. Nice wheels though and a good effort.

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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:00 pm 
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Location: The Netherlands
bm0p700f wrote:
I am not sure how any wheel feels more vertically complaint than another. Compliance implies delfection. the radial stiffnes of any wheel is so high that vertical deflection is not detectable by a human when riding


Doubt that is true. I am pretty sure that a low profile box section rim is a lot more compliant compared than a 90mm carbon rim. Also, if inflating a tire reduces spoke tension, I guess riding a wheel should definitely be able to do the same.

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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:37 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 63
SWijland wrote:
bm0p700f wrote:
I am not sure how any wheel feels more vertically complaint than another. Compliance implies delfection. the radial stiffnes of any wheel is so high that vertical deflection is not detectable by a human when riding


Doubt that is true. I am pretty sure that a low profile box section rim is a lot more compliant compared than a 90mm carbon rim. Also, if inflating a tire reduces spoke tension, I guess riding a wheel should definitely be able to do the same.


Not to mention the effect of the tire. "complaisance" assumed to mean some degree of dampening road shock. I'd suggest the effect of the tire many times any effect delivered from the actual rear rim build. Yet some riders are much more attuned to the bike's feel going down the road.

I'd be interested to hear to what extent tire air pressure has lowered tension readings vs the rim and lacings used.


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Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:37 pm 


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