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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
NOS record hubs in 36H I think are still available here in the U.K. These will be the older ones with steel axles. Do you want some as I can order from the distributor.

Solrider 1x DS is sed to imporve bracing angle. Given NDS bracing angles are far more important for wheel stiffness then it make some bt little difference. Also you rims will be stiff so this fudge is probably not needed. If it is needed use Race spokes instead of CX-rays. I don't like fudges except nice flavoured fudge.

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Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:48 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Posts: 1642
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
The 1x heads in for Powertap was recommended by some people for the older hubs which had poor DS flange spacing. The G3 has improved flange spacing. At 17.3mm on the DS it should be good for regular lacing.... and with the large flanges there's a possiblilty of heads in lacing putting the spokes far enough out so the derailleur hits them.

Why Pillar nipples instead of Sapim? Are you using their internal nipples?

I've done front radial heads in and head out. On some hubs the spoke holes are countersunk on the outside. According to Jobst the elbow should be on that side of the flange. I've had some spokes break at the elbow when I laced those hubs the other way. So I lace those heads in. But I think that heads out looks better, even if the wheel is slightly less laterally stiff. If you do heads in, lacing them 1x doesn't look as funny (in my opinion of course).


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:17 am 
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Hi All, what are your thoughts on this lacing pattern ...

Image

thanks KL :)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:41 am 
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Location: Slovenia---that forest land
perfection if rear deraliur wont hit the spoke.
Didi you use 28 hole 3X for calculating spoke length?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:45 pm 
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Thanks kavitator, and Ash will be happy to hear that, also. He's the wheelbuilder I worked with in doing this lacing :)

I used 24H 3x to calculate the 3x spoke length.
This is a test case and fortunately the RD cage clears by about 3mm (big/small) and faintly touches for big/big, which I don't do, so I am not concerned.
Next time I will use CxRays which will give about another 2.5mm clearance and a lighter build :)

I've only ridden 80kms on it sofar, but it is very comfortable, stiffer, and fast, and so far it is still true and ok (and I ride over some quite rough roads) :)
I am not sure about durability but if it is still ok after 1000 to 2000kms then at that point I guess it can be called durable ...

I will be doing a 24H front wheel build in this lacing, also :)

I have named it "303 Lacing" ... how does that sound :)

thanks KL :)

Edit: Hey kavitator, I believe that the 303 Lacing should work very well for the BHS, DT 240S hubs, and hubs with around 17mm DS offset (and a little more, or less, DS offset), for very good 24H builds. The hub I used has 18mm DS offset in a 10spd setup :)
The following points are what I am finding so far ...
• A very compliant and comfortable ride
• Good compliance translates into this wheel being faster over rough roads
• Is Laterally stiffer … that is it has slow rate of Lateral rim movement
• Is fast … that is it has good drive with each pedal stroke


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:41 am 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Isn't that what is commonly called "crows foot" lacing?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:26 am 
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Hi eric, no ... I think that you will find that Crows Foot is different and I am pretty sure that you won't find any with 3x on a 24H hub/rim combination (I haven't seen any) ... if you find one the same please display it :)

The 303 Lacing (as I am calling it) replaced a 2xDS/NDS lacing ... this is much better (so far ... still testing).

I just did another 50km on it this morning, no issues, and fun to ride :)
This is my test route (or the reverse direction) ... http://ridewithgps.com/routes/2355194

thanks KL :)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:43 am 
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This tool is quit useful for inspecting spoke patterns.

It seems that KLabs had used a -3/0/3 pattern.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:30 am 
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Hi Orfitinho, nice tool (wish it did 5x) :)
The tool is suggesting that it is a variation of the Crows Foot 36s (Eric, you might be right, maybe) ... I think I prefer the name 303 Lacing :)
For 36H hub and rim combination then 4x would be superior ... I believe :)
Nonetheless, this is a superior lacing (sofar) to 2x for a 24H hub and rim combination :)

Hey Orfitinho, have you tried this lacing on 24H hub and rim combination ... do you have a picture and what are your thoughts :)

thanks KL :)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:06 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 8:32 am
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
Quick question: with the Campagnolo G3 14:7 lacing, could a 28 hole rim be used to replace the original rim?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:51 pm 
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Orfitinho wrote:
This tool is quit useful for inspecting spoke patterns.

It seems that KLabs had used a -3/0/3 pattern.


Brilliant, can't believe I've never seen this before.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:38 pm 
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Hey Orfitinho, thanks for the link to the tool, appreciated. It will make things easier but I wish it also allowed for 5x :)

Hey MajorMantra, nonetheless, I have never seen the lacing on a 24H hub/rim combination. Actually, I have never seen this lacing on any wheel ever :)

Hey kavitator, thank you and appreciated :)

Try it you will like it (very much) :)
If you are concerned about spoke/RD Cage strike, simply reverse the 4 radial spokes (ie. from heads-in to heads-out and heads-out to heads-in).
This won't be as good because the 3 spokes will not be tightly interlaced but it will provide more DS/Cage clearance.
Using CxRays or Pillar Blades will provide and extra 2 to 3mm of clearance and should produce an even better wheel :)

Depending on flange dia, you could try this on an 18H hub/rim combination and it will produce a strong and compliant wheel ... :)

I shall continue to call it 303 Lacing (sounds better) :)
I have shared this with you all ... enjoy :)
thanks KL :)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:33 am 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Klabs The problem with DT Swiss hubs is not the 17mm DS spacing it is the 33mm NDS spacing giving low NDS bracing angle and poor lateral stiffness. Most of the stiffness given by bracing angle will come from the NDS spokes. The BHS hub in comparison has good NDS flange spacing so the two hub are not the same! So while your lacing will no doubt work I do believe it can give a significant boost to lateral stiffness. The radial spokes are shorter and there fore stiffer and have a better bracing angle but there are not many of them so the improvement will be small. However it looks good.

Also the point abot good compliance. Radial deflection on any wheel is too small to even notice the tyre will deform more. How have you measured lateral stiffness? Fast well the rider does that, I find all wheels fast if I try hard enough.

I am not trying demean what you have done. You have built an interesting wheel but the attributes you have ascribed to it are very subjective and do not stack up.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Hey bm0p700f, you need to try it ... the hub I have done this with has a NDS CTF of 29.5mm (even worse than the DT240S)
I did it deliberately to see how much of an improvement there would be ... and the improvement is very noticeable :)
The improvement in compliance, with the 27mm deep rim (ERD = 586) that I have used, is also very noticeable ... my bum and body tells me so :)

Even though the Lateral Stiffness has improved, the really noticeable improvement is how much slower the rate of lateral movement occurs for the same applied pressure ... this aspect is very noticeable :)

thanks KL :)


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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:55 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:29 pm 
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Posts: 335
verycreativeusername wrote:
Quick question: with the Campagnolo G3 14:7 lacing, could a 28 hole rim be used to replace the original rim?

Hi verycreativeusername, I have thought about this and if you can get a rim with the same hole spacing as a G3 rim (even though there might be many more holes) then only use the required holes to match the G3 lacing ... well, that should work :)
Sorry, I am not sure which hole sizing will match, 28/32/36, if any at all. It will depend on rim ERD, but measure the hole spacings and let us know how you go :)


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