The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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kavitator
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Location: Slovenia---that forest land

by kavitator

perfection if rear deraliur wont hit the spoke.
Didi you use 28 hole 3X for calculating spoke length?

by Weenie


KLabs
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am

by KLabs

Thanks kavitator, and Ash will be happy to hear that, also. He's the wheelbuilder I worked with in doing this lacing :)

I used 24H 3x to calculate the 3x spoke length.
This is a test case and fortunately the RD cage clears by about 3mm (big/small) and faintly touches for big/big, which I don't do, so I am not concerned.
Next time I will use CxRays which will give about another 2.5mm clearance and a lighter build :)

I've only ridden 80kms on it sofar, but it is very comfortable, stiffer, and fast, and so far it is still true and ok (and I ride over some quite rough roads) :)
I am not sure about durability but if it is still ok after 1000 to 2000kms then at that point I guess it can be called durable ...

I will be doing a 24H front wheel build in this lacing, also :)

I have named it "303 Lacing" ... how does that sound :)

thanks KL :)

Edit: Hey kavitator, I believe that the 303 Lacing should work very well for the BHS, DT 240S hubs, and hubs with around 17mm DS offset (and a little more, or less, DS offset), for very good 24H builds. The hub I used has 18mm DS offset in a 10spd setup :)
The following points are what I am finding so far ...
• A very compliant and comfortable ride
• Good compliance translates into this wheel being faster over rough roads
• Is Laterally stiffer … that is it has slow rate of Lateral rim movement
• Is fast … that is it has good drive with each pedal stroke

eric
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by eric

Isn't that what is commonly called "crows foot" lacing?

KLabs
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am

by KLabs

Hi eric, no ... I think that you will find that Crows Foot is different and I am pretty sure that you won't find any with 3x on a 24H hub/rim combination (I haven't seen any) ... if you find one the same please display it :)

The 303 Lacing (as I am calling it) replaced a 2xDS/NDS lacing ... this is much better (so far ... still testing).

I just did another 50km on it this morning, no issues, and fun to ride :)
This is my test route (or the reverse direction) ... http://ridewithgps.com/routes/2355194

thanks KL :)

Orfitinho
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:25 pm

by Orfitinho

This tool is quit useful for inspecting spoke patterns.

It seems that KLabs had used a -3/0/3 pattern.

KLabs
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am

by KLabs

Hi Orfitinho, nice tool (wish it did 5x) :)
The tool is suggesting that it is a variation of the Crows Foot 36s (Eric, you might be right, maybe) ... I think I prefer the name 303 Lacing :)
For 36H hub and rim combination then 4x would be superior ... I believe :)
Nonetheless, this is a superior lacing (sofar) to 2x for a 24H hub and rim combination :)

Hey Orfitinho, have you tried this lacing on 24H hub and rim combination ... do you have a picture and what are your thoughts :)

thanks KL :)

istigatrice
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 8:32 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia

by istigatrice

Quick question: with the Campagnolo G3 14:7 lacing, could a 28 hole rim be used to replace the original rim?
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MajorMantra
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Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:38 pm

by MajorMantra

Orfitinho wrote:This tool is quit useful for inspecting spoke patterns.

It seems that KLabs had used a -3/0/3 pattern.


Brilliant, can't believe I've never seen this before.

KLabs
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am

by KLabs

Hey Orfitinho, thanks for the link to the tool, appreciated. It will make things easier but I wish it also allowed for 5x :)

Hey MajorMantra, nonetheless, I have never seen the lacing on a 24H hub/rim combination. Actually, I have never seen this lacing on any wheel ever :)

Hey kavitator, thank you and appreciated :)

Try it you will like it (very much) :)
If you are concerned about spoke/RD Cage strike, simply reverse the 4 radial spokes (ie. from heads-in to heads-out and heads-out to heads-in).
This won't be as good because the 3 spokes will not be tightly interlaced but it will provide more DS/Cage clearance.
Using CxRays or Pillar Blades will provide and extra 2 to 3mm of clearance and should produce an even better wheel :)

Depending on flange dia, you could try this on an 18H hub/rim combination and it will produce a strong and compliant wheel ... :)

I shall continue to call it 303 Lacing (sounds better) :)
I have shared this with you all ... enjoy :)
thanks KL :)

bm0p700f
in the industry
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by bm0p700f

Klabs The problem with DT Swiss hubs is not the 17mm DS spacing it is the 33mm NDS spacing giving low NDS bracing angle and poor lateral stiffness. Most of the stiffness given by bracing angle will come from the NDS spokes. The BHS hub in comparison has good NDS flange spacing so the two hub are not the same! So while your lacing will no doubt work I do believe it can give a significant boost to lateral stiffness. The radial spokes are shorter and there fore stiffer and have a better bracing angle but there are not many of them so the improvement will be small. However it looks good.

Also the point abot good compliance. Radial deflection on any wheel is too small to even notice the tyre will deform more. How have you measured lateral stiffness? Fast well the rider does that, I find all wheels fast if I try hard enough.

I am not trying demean what you have done. You have built an interesting wheel but the attributes you have ascribed to it are very subjective and do not stack up.

KLabs
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am

by KLabs

Hey bm0p700f, you need to try it ... the hub I have done this with has a NDS CTF of 29.5mm (even worse than the DT240S)
I did it deliberately to see how much of an improvement there would be ... and the improvement is very noticeable :)
The improvement in compliance, with the 27mm deep rim (ERD = 586) that I have used, is also very noticeable ... my bum and body tells me so :)

Even though the Lateral Stiffness has improved, the really noticeable improvement is how much slower the rate of lateral movement occurs for the same applied pressure ... this aspect is very noticeable :)

thanks KL :)

KLabs
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am

by KLabs

verycreativeusername wrote:Quick question: with the Campagnolo G3 14:7 lacing, could a 28 hole rim be used to replace the original rim?

Hi verycreativeusername, I have thought about this and if you can get a rim with the same hole spacing as a G3 rim (even though there might be many more holes) then only use the required holes to match the G3 lacing ... well, that should work :)
Sorry, I am not sure which hole sizing will match, 28/32/36, if any at all. It will depend on rim ERD, but measure the hole spacings and let us know how you go :)

eric
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by eric

KLabs wrote:Even though the Lateral Stiffness has improved, the really noticeable improvement is how much slower the rate of lateral movement occurs for the same applied pressure


It would be interesting to see deflection measured under the same load with this lacing and standard 2x on the same hub and rim.

captainclarko
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:13 am

by captainclarko

I'm building a set of wheels soon and at my weight (75kg) I'm considering a 24h rear and 20h front. I'm interested in aluminum tubulars and I'll be using the T11 hubs from white industries. I want a rim that doesn't compromise lateral stability for a lower weight. I was hoping to use velocity escapes but they seem to have poor reviews regarding their profile and depth. HED C2 tubulars look to be my next option but they are twice the price and are only available in 24, 28, or 32 hole. I would appreciate a rim recommendation. This will strictly be for road use. I am looking at a radial front pattern and either 2X NDS/ 2x DS pattern or a 1x DS and 2x NDS pattern to offest the poor tension balancing of these hubs.

eric
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by eric

Unless you are always going to run 10sp cassettes you may want to lace the DS normally rather than 1x heads in. With the 11sp large cog being 1.85mm closer to the flange there may be clearance problems between spokes and derailleur.

by Weenie


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