Trying to maybe rebuild my wheels into something lighter/snappier.

What I have now:
Chris King R45s
Hed Belgians
Sapim Race 28/32
Weight: 1795 grams
This wheelset is stiff as hell, durable, and has had 0 issues over the past year of use including on roads that were more suited for a mountain bike.

Ideally I would like to use the same hubs. Alpha 340s would go well in 28/32 it seems, but I would like to sort out the spokes and build. Any advice for a somewhat lighter, but stiff spoke since I will need them anyways? I was thinking either Sapim CXs or maybe DT Revolutions. I've used CX-Rays with this kind of build before, but found it to be a bit too flexy. Currently have brass nipples, no preference on switching to alloy or anything.

Any opinions or advice on this build? Right now I'm 2x all the way around so I'm guessing that'd be the build for this as well unless someone has suggestions. By my calculations I am saving 150g in rim weight, and ~80g in spoke weight so it would bring the weight down from 1795 to 1560 or so, which is pretty light.

Use of alloy nipples will save 40g in that spoke cont over brass. I have been using Sapim alloy nipples for a few thousand miles now with no issues yet so try them. Also you could se Sapim Laser spokes Front and NDS rear with race spokes DS rear. This wil retain stiffnes on the rear wheel and save weight. Lace the rear 3x as it a 32 spoke build.

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www.thecycleclinic.co.uk

Hi KWalker, if you use the current wheels w/o rim change ... exactly what bm0p700f said ... laser or cxRay NDS rear and front w/ alloy nipples
What spoke lacing pattern do these wheels currently have ...

Rebuild with Stans Alpha 340 rims, then ...

Rear ... CK R45 32H 8/9/10spd hub, 130mm OLD, flange Ø = 51mm/51mm, CTF = 18.9mm/34.6mm, spokes = laser or cxray
Stans Alpha 340 32H rims ERD = 591mm
- 2xDS 2xNDS ... (good torque control)
-- NDS ratio = 55% ... (acceptable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ratio)
-- Total Bracing Angle = 7.1 + 3.9 = 11.0 degrees (good lateral wheel stiffness)

- 2xDS 3xNDS ... (good to very good torque control)
-- NDS ratio = 55% plus a little bit ... (acceptable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ratio) ... this means that the NDS spoke tension is a little higher for the same DS spoke tension
-- Total Bracing Angle = 7.1 + 3.8 = 10.9 degrees (average to good lateral wheel stiffness)

Maybe - Stans Alpha 340 28H rims ERD = 591mm, leave out every 4th NDS spoke (or you could use a 4 x 3 spoke Crows Foot lacing (effectively equivalent to a 2x traditional lacing)
- 2xDS 3xNDS ... (good to very good torque control)
-- NDS ratio = 55% * 16/12 = 73% ... (good to very good NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ratio - good to very good NDS spoke tension)
-- Total Bracing Angle = 7.1 + 3.9 = 11.0 degrees (good lateral wheel stiffness)
---- A Crows Foot lacing will improve the NDS Bracing Angle because 2 of the 3 spokes are heads in. Also this can be further improved by using a completely heads in Crows Foot lacing

- OR

-- NDS - you could use a 2 x 5 spoke Crows Foot lacing (with the 2 radial spokes heads out, the others heads in, and its a very clever 0x/2x/3x arrangement), plus 2 heads in radial spokes
---- Total Bracing Angle = 7.1 + 4.0 = 11.1 degrees (good lateral wheel stiffness)
---- Should build a very strong, stiff, and light rear wheel (nearly as light as your 28H front wheel and would look pretty unique and interesting)

-- DS - not sure if there is enough room between the spoke head and cassette, but you could use a 3 x 5 spoke Crows Foot lacing (with the 2 radial spokes heads out and the others heads in), plus 1 heads in radial spoke (placed opposite to the valve stem)
---- Total Bracing Angle = 7.3 + 4.0 = 11.3 degrees (good to very good lateral wheel stiffness)
---- You could probably use 110kgf (even 100kgf should work and be laterally stiff) DS spoke tension with the 5 spoke Crows Foot DS/NDS lacing arrangement
---- Should build a very strong, very stiff, and light rear wheel (nearly as light as your 28H front wheel, and would look pretty unique and interesting)


Front ... no issue here ... whatever you would like ... 0x 1x 2x will be fine. For road a 28H front is very laterally stiff
-- You could use a 2 x 5 spoke Crows Foot lacing, plus 4 radial spokes ... which would look pretty unique and interesting

Hi WinterRider, I had an idea about your 18-10 lacing arrangement
Have a look at the following using a CK R45 32H 8/9/10spd hub and Stans Alpha 340 28H Rim ERD = 591mm ...

CK R45 32H 8/9/10spd hub, 130mm OLD, flange Ø = 51mm/51mm, CTF = 18.9mm/34.6mm
DS - 3xDS ... Bracing Angle = 3.8 degrees, 2xDS ... Bracing Angle = 3.9 degrees
NDS - 2 x 5 spoke Crows Foot lacing (with the 2 radial spokes heads out, the others heads in (good to very good torque control) ... Bracing Angle = 7.3 degrees

Total Bracing Angle (TBA)
- 3xDS ... 3.8 + 7.3 = 11.1 (good lateral wheel stiffness, very good control of torque effects)
- 2xDS ... 3.9 + 7.3 = 11.2 (good lateral wheel stiffness, good control of torque effects)

NDS ratio ... with these figures, DS spoke tension could be 90kgf
- 3xDS ... 52% * 18/10 = 93.6%
- 2xDS ... 53% * 18/10 = 95.4%

Using the above as an example, you could build a rear wheel like this (depending on TBA, which indicates lateral stiffness) using Sapim Laser or cxray spokes, Campagnolo or Miche Racing Box or Novatec F482SB/F162S or BHS SL211B or Shimano or Hope or Bitex hubs, and almost any Rims ...

Like NDS ratio, a rear wheel needs sufficient lateral stiffness for a riders weight and/or power. Although as a riders weight/power increases so does wheels lateral stiffness need to increase from average to good to very good to excellent
It would appear that TBA reflects lateral stiffness, or until proven otherwise , where ...
- very bad < 10.0 degrees (very light rider/low to good power or light rider/low power)
- bad >= 10.0 and < 10.5 degrees
- average >= 10.5 and < 11.0 degrees
- good >= 11.0 and < 11.5 degrees (very light rider/very high power or light rider/very high power or normal rider(75/85kg)/high power or heavy rider/low to good power)
- very good >= 11.5 and < 12.0 degrees
- excellent >= 12.0 and < 12.5 degrees (heavy rider/high power)
- very excellent >= 12.5 degrees (heavy rider/very high power or very heavy rider/low to good power)

What do you think ...

Seriouly total bracing angle in mathematically meaningless. stop qoting it! You cannot add the bracing the angles and then work out the lateral tension/stifness component. You have to do that for the DS and then the NDS and then sum if you want to do that. Try doing the sums KLabs and you will see.

The individual bracing angles are enough and most of the lateral wheel stiffness comes from the NDS spokes but thin spokes are sufficent for good stiffness on the non drive side. You could always use K walker ACI alpina DB 2.0/1.7mm/2.0mm all round on the rear.
I am going to have to start building up my stock of these.

_________________
www.thecycleclinic.co.uk

Hi bm0p700f, no worries and to ask, do you have the maths to shows that Total Bracing Angle is meaningless?
Yes, definitely most of the lateral stiffness is coming from the NDS bracing but there is still some lateral stiffness coming from the DS.
The summing of DS/NDS lateral stiffness will determine the wheels mechanical lateral stiffness ... the principle here is mechanics which includes geometry

Actually I have done the sums/maths (and so far you have only written conjecture) ...

I just did a further check of the maths and it would appear that an FTF spacing of about 60mm is possible
Using a FTF spacing = 60mm, flange Ø = 51mm/51mm, CTF = 17.0mm/43.0mm, ERD = 600mm (Velocity A23), will produce
- Traditional 12:12, 14:14, 16:16, 18:18 spoke arrangement produces a NDS ratio = 41%, which is unacceptable
- 16:8 spoke arrangement produces a NDS ratio = 41% * 16/8 = 82%, which is very good
- 16:12 spoke arrangement produces a NDS ratio = 41% * 16/12 = 54.6%, which is acceptable
- 18:10 spoke arrangement produces a NDS ratio = 41% * 18/10 = 73.8%, which is good (WinterRiders excellent option)
- TBA = 11.8 to 12.5 degrees (3x to 0x), which is good to excellent lateral stiffness.

I know from the TBA that a 16:8, 16:12, and 18:10 spoke arrangement, should produce a rear wheel that is very strong and very laterally stiff, but a traditional spoke arrangement cannot be used because the NDS ratio = 41% is unacceptable (even though lateral stiffness is not an issue, the wheel is not radially stiff enough)
The 18:10 spoke arrangements, depending on NDS spoke lacing, is perhaps the best for durability and the 16:12 is perhaps the best for spoke breakage and repair
A heavy and powerful rider should find this wheel stiff and responsive
Although FTF = 60 is probably a little wide for NDS heads in lacing ... so FTF could be a little wider, say 62mm, and crows foot heads out lacing used

At this time there is no need to stop quoting TBA, and it would be wonderful if you tell me where it is wrong

Actually, if the DS/NDS bracing angles were each 6 degrees (or more), then we would not be having this discussion and this thread would not be necessary.
I have rarely seen a front wheel discussed in this thread and that is because left/right bracing angles are equal and >= 6 degrees, although this is changing with the introduction of disc brakes

Hey bm0p700f, do you have anything (mathematically) that simplifies, or assists, someone to decide that a hub, rim, and spoke lacing pattern can be used successfully for their weight and power ... all good, thanks

anyone can tell me which is the maximum tension of spokes for chinese 20mm carbon rims? I use pillar 1420 blade spokes.

Bracing angles.

I can not find the post back into this series where the writer points to stronger/stiffer spokes on the NDS vs DS. That coincides with my idea/s per NDS stiffness relating to lateral tensions.. and then finding the higher tension triplet NDS lacings function superior.. for MY purposes.

Consider.. the scenario: you have 16 NDS spokes tensioned to 55 kgf. Remove 8.. lace those NDS remainder heads in and finish with 105+ kgf.. near DS tension. Higher tensions translate to durability and stiffness. That's my story.. and I'm stick'n to it... for now.

KLabs I'll see what I can find from the empirical side via that hybrid crow's foot. I'd be inclinded to go 2 hybrid's.. and then two crossing using four holes.. both of course mirroring the other .. this NDS. Gives the advantageous flange angle of departure.. only means two radial's this route. Assuming all heads in. Yes the 36H hub is problematic.. with the desired quality and weight concerns. The H3 looks most promising to date.

The max tension will depend i part on the thickness of the spoke bed and that varies betwwen rim models like it does with alloy rims.

_________________
www.thecycleclinic.co.uk

yes it's true but anyone have experience with chinese carbon rims?

Hi danny, you really need to provide more specifications about this rim ... can you provide a link which will provide details about this rim ... thanks

You could always assume the worst (to be on the safe side) and treat it like a Stans Alpha 340 rim or one of the lighter rims (seems a reasonable approach) ...

Anyone have any experience with this hub or company? Shown at 228 grs.

Your comments are welcomed.

http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/vo-hi-lo-cassette-rear-hub.html

my carbon rims are this but for tubular:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/New-Full-Carbon- ... 3f20578deb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hi WinterRider, it looks like it could be an excellent 36H hub spec wise ... good find
Be interesting to know what the internal construction is ...
I wonder if the freehub is common and upgradeable to S11spd ...

Here's the maths ...
VO Hi-Low 36H Hub, FSC Ø 38.0/47.0mm, CTF 38.5/17.5mm, FTF = 56.0mm, ERD = 600mm (Velocity A23)
- 0xDS 0xNDS ... 7.8 + 3.6 = 11.4'
- 3xDS 3xNDS ... 7.4 + 3.4 = 11.1'
- NDS 2 x 5 spoke Crows foot = 7.7, DS 6 x 3 spoke Crows foot = 3.6 (Crows Foot radial spoke heads out, others heads in) = 11.3' ... good lateral stiffness, good torque control
- NDS 2 x 5 spoke Crows foot = 7.7, DS 3 x 5 spoke Crows foot and 3 x Radial spokes (heads in) = 3.6 (Crows Foot radial spoke heads out, others heads in) = 11.3' ... good lateral stiffness, very good torque control

NDS ratio = 46% * 18/10 = 82.8% ... very good

Please check my maths and confirm, and lets us know what the internals are like, and what freehub is used ... thanks

Hey WinterRider, the VO Grand Cru Touring Hub has stunning specs and is super easy to maintain (no tools required), http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/grand-cru-4-bearing-hub.html ... just a little heavy (325g)

VO Grand Cru Touring 36H Hub, FSC Ø 60/60mm, CTF 40/17.5mm, FTF = 57.5mm, ERD = 600mm (Velocity A23)
- 0xDS 0xNDS ... TBA = 8.5 + 3.7 = 12.2' ... excellent
- 3xDS 3xNDS ... TBA = 8.0 + 3.5 = 11.5' ... very good

NDS ratio = 44% * 18/9 = 88% ... excellent
NDS ratio = 44% * 16/8 = 88% ... excellent
NDS ratio = 44% * 18/10 = 79.2% ... very good
NDS ratio = 44% * 18/12 = 66% ... good
NDS ratio = 44% * 12/8 = 66% ... good
NDS ratio = 44% * 14/10 = 61.6% ... good
NDS ratio = 44% * 16/12 = 58.6% ... acceptable
NDS ratio = 44% * 18/14 = 56.6% ... acceptable
NDS ratio = 44% * 12/10 = 52.8% ... acceptable