I really do think winter rider and Klabs your are over analysing the wheel to true and create some sort of perfect wheel. I don't it exisits.

I was having a converastion today with a chap phoned who maintains that tie and soldering works to stiffen a wheel. I tried explaining to him it does not have the effect he thinks bt he did not believe me. Believe what you want but if you want to know build some sample wheels and test against control wheels. I think tie and soldering a wheel is a waste of time as wheels even with 44% tension balance seem reliable enough (I ride wheels like these). I also cannot see how the tie can make a spoke stiffer. If it has an effect it will be small and the effect maybe lost in the scatter.

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I do think Klabs and winter rider you are over analysing a wheel some what.

I am not aware of any data that has looked tied and solder wheels with respect to spoke fatigue. I strongly suspect there may not be the advantages you might think as the spoke head from winter rider last post may not be able to move much anyway depending on the hub spoke combination.

If your wheels have spoke breaking regulally then the problem can be fixed quite simply by choosing a more appropriate rim, hub spoke combination without having to resort to techniqes that have been debunked to a large extent.

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I don't think that the torque on the spokes has that much effect on their tension. That's just my feeling, not backed up by measurements or someone's study. But the tforce is split among all the pulling spokes of the wheel. While only the spokes where the wheel touches the ground are detensioned due to the rim flattening out. OTOH when I break spokes it is usually when I am standing and putting out power, like starting an interval. That may have more to due with me rocking the bike and flexing the wheel laterally.

I did find a post from Jobst about static lateral stiffness with tied & soldered spokes where he found no difference:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/whee ... ldered.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hi Eric, those tests were to a static wheel not a dynamic wheel (while riding) and also it was a 36 spoke wheel where the NDS tension was probably >44% and probably more like 70/80% ...
Statically there can be no difference (according to Applied Mechanics) and as such I would not call that a valid test.

I thought that I would ask and it would be an interesting discussion for low NDS spoke tension (ie 44%)

Hi bm0p700f, as you have said NDS spoke tension can be improved a little with 2xDS 3xNDS and also various combinations of rim depth, DS spoke flange dia, no of spokes, and spoke lacings can improve the DS/NDS ratio and wheel strength/stiffness.

Winterrider and I are looking for low spoke count alternatives to a 16:8/2:1 24H lacing that are more robust and looks like a good option for good DS/NDS tension ratio...
- 32H hub, 28H rim, 16:12, 2/3xDS, 3xNDS, 120:80kgf ???
- 36H hub, 28H rim, 18:10, 2/3xDS, 0xNDS, 120:90-100kgf ???
- hopefully more to come

I've built 15-20 wheels but have lost count. You guys are really overthinking this, BUT i am loving this discussion. Some of it seems a little ridiculous but I figure the more I learn on wheel dynamics the better my next wheel will be.

Spoke and lacing pattern question here:

I've got a set of Chris King R45's (28 hole front, 32 hole rear) and a pair of Ambrosio Excellight rims (28 and 32 hole, duh...) that are eagerly anticipating to be built up into a set of 'do it all' wheels.

75kg (165lbs) rider, wheels will see the odd dirt road in training but will also be used for crits and road races.
As the starting point (hubs and rims) aren't the lightest it makes no sense to me (and the rider) to use cx-ray's or similar 'aerodynamic + lightweight' spokes, and as these will be mated to a 'classic' looking bike I was thinking of going the tried and true Sapim Race (or DT Competition, depending on which are easier to get). Am happy to explore Sapim Laser's if the consensus here is that the wheel will be significantly stiffer; the 100grams or so weight savings are not too important for this wheelset.

Regarding lacing patterns I was thinking 2x front, 3x rear all around.

Any thoughts?

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Storck Fenomalist 6.8kg

Hi jbf, it appears you really like the Velocity Aerohead OC 32H rear rim ... have you ever had any issues of cracking occurring with this rim?

What have you built to date and what are your experiences to date ... thanks

@Hakeem- There really won't be a huge difference between Lasers and Races, or Comps for that matter. With that said, go with whatevers easiest to get. For lacing, 3x rear both sides is a good option. I would recommend going 3x both sides up front as well.

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Wouldn't 3x for the 28h front have the spokes close to the heads of other spokes? Especially considering that the front hub flange diameter is small. I usually do 2x for the 28h rears I have been building.

Lasers are thinner than Race and weigh about 1g less. They will make the wheels, especially the rear, a bit less laterally stiff. They wind up more when building the wheels. I like using them for the NDS since the spokes have to stretch more to reach a given tension, so they are less likely to become completely detensioned and eventually break. If you don't break NDS spokes then this may not be a concern for you.

If I am doing Lasers for the NDS I use them for the front too.

I tend to build most front wheels for race type bikes with Laser spokes on the front, that for CX-rays. Race spokes are only needed when there is a very heavy rider (100kg+) and in that case a 32 spoke front wheel will be picked. I also lace 28 spoke front wheels 2x, it is slightly stiffer than 3x and every little bit helps.

For a 32 spoke rear 3x is best but if a 28 spoke rear wheel I agree with Eric that 2x lacing is still fine. 3x lacing imporves tortional stiffness bt if the wheel is laced 2x I challange to get any wind up. With 2x lacing tortional stiffnes is enough and that all that is needed. Also if you are light enough consider lacing both side with laser spokes. I tend to lace 28 spoke rear 2x because I am often using light rims for such wheels and laser spokes allround so the small lateral stiffness increase for 2x lacing helps a bit.

However lacing a 28 spoke rear 3x doesn't hurt either, I just think it does not look right.

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Hi all, no that there seems to be a forum within a forum I tought that I would ask this question here also ... thanks

That.. is the rationale behind analyzing all components of a wheel build. The sum of all of the build determines it's life span.

Then.. consider the heavy use wheel... a heavy load. Going 10,000 miles without breaking spokes.

How heavy does one have to go to accomplish that? Mostly this is recreational pursuit for me... yet lighter wheels.. just go... faster.

IMO.. not a real world test. I don't see computer's riding bikes in my neighborhood either. Hook your computer sensors to a bike being ridden.. that would be real data.

I am not advocating tying spokes. I suspect the effect is marginal at best. Yet the 'book' that advocated tying stated doing so eliminated brake pad rubbing while sprinting. Back then the rim's being employed weren't as stiff as today's.

I think winter rider you do not see the validity of models. Many simple models can model reality very well. You may not see that but I think Josh brandt test to model what is happening in a tied and soldered wheel quite well. After all al brandt was looking at was whether tieing spokes improved lateral and tortional stiffness. If both of these did not change it is fair to sumerise that radial stiffness did not change either, after all the three types of stiffness are all related. If the radial stiffnes does not change then the ammont of spoke slap you were refering to cannot be altered.

It is a shame he did not present his data.

His test resolved that and that is case in the wheel on the road.

Maybe condct the tests you want done but I don't think you'll find anything. The best way to analayise a wheel is with FE anaysis anyway and that require a computor.

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Hi bm0p700f, how does that test reflect Torque effects ... thanks