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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:11 pm
Posts: 1
I searched this thread and read some other builds that had the same idea but wanted to get some input for my particular setup:

Currently 172lbs 5'9" will be back to low 160 range (newborn baby at home)
Ride in WV, so lots of climbs and descents, potholes so tubeless is a good thing.
I have a pretty strong sprint, can hang with the 3/4's till it get things get vertical.

The build I have in mind:

King R45
Alpha 340's 20h radial front 24 hole 2x rear
Sapim CX Ray

Or

King R45
Alpha 340 20h radial f
Alpha 400 24 hole 2 x rear
Sapim CX Ray


Or either combination with DT Aero lites, the DT are a little easier for me to get, but seems like sapims are the way to go.

My other option is just pick up a new set of Zipp 303 clinchers

Part of hub section is revolving around Dura Ace 9000 11spd body


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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:11 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:31 pm 
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Posts: 38
Since trying my hand at wheelbuilding a few months ago, I've built 3 wheelsets for myself. Everything seemed to go together smoothly enough and I thought I did a pretty good job. Tensions were pretty even and wheels spun true.

However, a few hundred miles later (per wheel) I've noticed that ALL the wheels are suffering the same issue -- ALL the spokes went slack. Now when I say ALL I mean ALL, not just 1 or 2 spokes. In most cases, the wheels remained true so I didn't notice anything until I tried squeezing the spokes or took a tension meter to it. Since the wheels are staying pretty much true, it seems like all the spokes are unwinding pretty evenly. I've already had to retension all the wheels 1-2 times.

I'm just not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Here's some of the things I'm doing during the build:
- grease spoke holes on rim (Park polylube 1000)
- dip front/DS spokes in light oil (Benchmade blue-lube, a knife lube that I had laying around)
- prep NDS spokes with Rock n' Roll nipple cream
- flag spokes to make twisting visible
- use a Twist Resist tool everytime I took a spoke wrench to the wheel
- tension no more than 1/4 turn per round
- stress relieve after every round of tensioning/truing/dishing by squeezing parallel spokes and laying the rim sideways then pushing down on opposite sides of the rim (several times around the rim)
- tension front spokes to around 110kgf, rear DS spokes to 120~130kgf, and rear NDS spokes to whatever they needed to be for proper dish
- try to keep tensions as even as possible. measurements via Park TM-1 tension meter (which really is pretty terrible....)
- all builds used standard Sapim polyax brass nipples, correct spoke lengths, Laser/Race(DS) spokes
- front wheels were laced either radial or 1x, rear wheels (with Novatec hubs) laced 2x/2x, and one wheel using BHS hubs laced 1xDS/2xNDS.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm so tired of having to retension these wheels, I'm about to buy self-locking nipples, spoke freeze, or some kind of threadlocker.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:44 pm 
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in the industry

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Posts: 3318
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
@ethan44. I am going to diagree with Zen. I have a similar build to you but I have used the cheaper A291 SB and F482 SB hubs. They are an extra 35g though. I am 79 kg but a bit more kitted up. Admitidly I have not put many miles on the wheels yet but so far I have no issues. I have built 28F 2x and 28R 2x. Tensions have been maintained as has wheel trueness. I don't think I will suffer probelms but I am a smooth rider and kind to wheels. If you are the same I do not think you will have a problem. The front wheel I am sure will be fine in 24H format I would do same for my self now. The rear seem acceptably stiff under acceleration but I am no 1KW power station. In fact the wheels feel great. Building with the novatec hubs was quite easy as tension balance is quite good. However more spokes won't hurt.

@gordan I did a similar build for a customer recently. Same weight. I used heavier Novatec hubs (A171 and F272) as they suited to the bike they were going on better. The A23 rim is pretty stiff and so long as you are a smooth rider and not a power station they will be fine and light.

@dblvanos
I do not think you have enough spokes in your build. 24F/28R. Using the Stans alpha 400 on the rear is not a bad idea as it will be stiffer than the 340.

kya - that alot of lube you are using. I just dip the spoke threads in 3 in 1 oil and that it. You have spent too much time preping and maybe all that lube is helping you spokes unwind. This is unlikely though.

What spokes have you used? If they are lasers or similar then it may be that the spokes have extended a bit when riding. Lasers do need very persistant grasping of pairs of spokes when tensioning to ensure they have been stretched. This is particulaly important for the NDS spokes that are under lower tension or in uses they will stretch a bit and tension can then drop. When building with laser I have fully tensioned the wheel graps pairs of spokes and seen the tension drop by half afterwards.

I have never used threadlocker, even on a low tension builds 1100N DS and ~480N NDS, never had issues yet. Also your front wheel tensions are higher than they need to be. 900-1000N of tension is sufficient on a front wheel. Front wheels build without threadlocker and have tensions below 900N can develop true issues.


The park tension gauge is actually good enough for tension measurements.

_________________
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
Posts: 2278
Location: Canada
This idea crossed my mind:

A 8:16 rear hub build for a KinlinTB25 24h / Sapim CX Ray / BHS hub.

Or maybe radial NDS on a standard 24h rear hub ( Ilike the looks of radial NDS).

What do you think wheelbuilders ?

Louis :)


Last edited by LouisN on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
Posts: 2278
Location: Canada
teleguy57 wrote:
Zen, what's your experience with road tires on the Major Tom? I know they get rave reviews with cx tires, but have read a number of posts on different boards about the radius being a bit shallow to get a good glue bond with narrower road tubulars.


I had Major Tom rims. I used them with 23 mm road tubs.

IMO, they would fit best with 25-27 mm tubulars, smaller ones like 22-23 mm don't have an even bond with the rim bed, they leave 1-2 mm on each side.

Louis :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:45 am 
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Posts: 38
bm0p700f wrote:
kya - that alot of lube you are using. I just dip the spoke threads in 3 in 1 oil and that it. You have spent too much time preping and maybe all that lube is helping you spokes unwind. This is unlikely though.

What spokes have you used? If they are lasers or similar then it may be that the spokes have extended a bit when riding. Lasers do need very persistant grasping of pairs of spokes when tensioning to ensure they have been stretched. This is particulaly important for the NDS spokes that are under lower tension or in uses they will stretch a bit and tension can then drop. When building with laser I have fully tensioned the wheel graps pairs of spokes and seen the tension drop by half afterwards.

I have never used threadlocker, even on a low tension builds 1100N DS and ~480N NDS, never had issues yet. Also your front wheel tensions are higher than they need to be. 900-1000N of tension is sufficient on a front wheel. Front wheels build without threadlocker and have tensions below 900N can develop true issues.


The park tension gauge is actually good enough for tension measurements.


I'm note sure how I'm using a lot of lube? I've heard it mentioned here to grease the spoke holes on the rim -- should I not be doing that? Then I'm dipping the spokes in a light oil, much like you are.

Spokes used are Lasers and Races (DS only). During the build I do regularly squeeze parallel spokes. Is this what you're referring to when you say "grasping of paired spokes"?

And yes, I do realize that the front tensions are high, but if tension keeps the spokes from unwinding...I'm not sure why they're still unwinding.

As far as the Park meter, it seems to be a bit more consistent after some lube and some time to break in. When I first started, the tensions were all over the place. I could measure the same spoke twice and get 2 totally different results.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:41 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 2196
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
kya- what rims are these? It sounds like you're doing everything right to prevent/undo spoke wind up. Perhaps it's something to do with the rim or nipples seating in the rim and not the spokes unwinding. They can't unwind if they're not wound up.

My experience is that when the spokes are wound up they will unwind when you ride the wheel the first time. You'll hear them pinging as they do it.

Do the Race on the DS also slacken? They won't wind up as much as the Lasers since they're larger cross section.

Your Park tension meter sounds like it's messed up. Mine's consistent to +- 1/2 mark on the index or less when measuring the same spoke repeatedly. You might contact Park.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:29 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:02 am
Posts: 1980
Location: NoVA/DC
Not using a threadlocker sounds nice, but IMO there is no reason to NOT use it. I use spoke freeze. I like it bc I can build up the wheel with oil on the threads and then drop spoke freeze between the spoke/nipple after everything is done. Wheelsmith spoke prep can make it difficult to build with revolutions and the like. greasing rim holes is good.
For all practical purposes, a spoke will not plastically deform during its lifetime. any plastic deformation should be done during the build. They don't get softer with use. The only relevant thing lowering the tension as assembled is the tire's air pressure, but the tension returns when the tire is removed.
Edit: after I read your post again, I didn't see you mention any spoke alignment. Essentially, when the wheel is laced and the spokes have minimal tension, the spokes should not bow out anywhere. the outside elbow should sit as close to the flange as possible, make a straight line to the crossing spoke and slightly kink at their intersection (if applicable). Then continue to the nipple. Most nipples cannot angle themselves enough to truly line up with the spoke, so the spoke should be slightly kinked right at the nipple junction.
the whole point of this is so that, in use, the spoke is pulled and relaxed in straight lines. any bows will cause movement at the elbow as it cycles through its tension change.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:44 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:37 am
Posts: 34
Ethan, check back around page 240. I got a lot of helpful info regarding the Kinlin XR200's and Novatec hubs from bm0 amongst others. It'll probably help!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:10 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:47 am
Posts: 38
@eric: Happens on all 3 wheelsets I've built -- Velocity A23, Kinlin XC-279, and Kinlin XR19W. Yes the Race spokes also go slack. If I recall correctly, the wheels were dished properly before I retensioned them, so the detensioning seems to be pretty even (I'll check this later, I have 3 wheels I need to retension....). While riding, I have not noticed any pinging or other odd sounds coming from the wheels.

@thisisatest: Really, spoke freeze can be added after all is done even if oil was used? I'm going to have to give that a go. Sounds like a much faster/easier than rebuilding with self-locking nipples. I see you mentioned tire air pressure lowering the tensions, so in case there was any doubt -- yes, I'm checking the tensions with the tires removed. Also, thanks for the tip on spoke alignment. I'll give that a go. Slightly kinking the spokes at the flange and crosses I know how to do, but how do you do it at the nipple junction?

Edit: This is the DT Swiss spoke freeze right?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:11 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:19 pm
Posts: 66
There was an article today by Fairwheel about Shimano 11-speed compatible hubs.

http://fairwheelbikes.com/cycling-blog/ ... speed.html

According to the article, the WI T11 hubs have a drive side offset of only 16 mm and a tension ratio of 43% and thereby has the poorest tension ratio amount all the compared hubs.

What is the significance of this?

Is this serious enough that we should not be using WI T11 hubs?

If this were bad, then why would WI design such a hub?

I am not trying to flame White Industry hubs - I have two custom training wheelsets using the MI 5 front hub and the H3 rear hub that have remained true and perfect for years and over 6000 miles. And, I was in the process of ordering a racing wheelset with the WI T11 hubs.

Should I use a different hub or wait until the new 11speed compatible Chris King R45 is released to build up my new wheelsets?

Sorry to cross post this, but I am worried because I was about to just order a wheelset with the WI T11 hubs.

Mark

_________________
2012 Lynskey R330 with SRAM Red Quarq
2013 Parlee Z1 with DA 9070
2013 Lynskey Helix OS II with SRAM Red


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:06 pm 
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Posts: 2196
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Thisisatest- I think you may be on to something that I forgot in my earlier post. On most wheels I have to encourage the spokes to conform to the hub and lacing pattern by bending them at the elbow. If they are bowed and not straight they will straighten during use and detension. Kya have you read Jobst Brandt's wheel building book? He covers this (and a lot more).

Mark, there's two problems caused by smaller DS flange width. One is the reduction in lateral stiffness. If the flanges are moved in the bracing angle is less which make the wheel flex more laterally. Second is increased tension differential vs the NDS.

The spokes need to be a certain tension so they don't detension completely as the rim flattens out very slightly where the wheel meets the road or when the wheel flexes as it receives side force, as when you are out of the saddle and rocking the bike side to side. A detensioned spoke is no longer supporting anything as spokes support by being a pre-stressed member. When its detensioned the spoke flexes especially at the elbow. Because of the wheel dish the NDS spokes are always at a lower tension. A classic sign of a wheel with too low NDS tension is NDS spokes breaking at the elbow.

Somewhere around 60 kgf is the minimum to keep the spokes tensioned. But that depends on the stiffness of the rim and the riding style of the rider- one who rocks the bike a lot will put more stress on the wheel. (that's why I break wheels even though I don't weigh much or make much power but I do climb out of the saddle a lot. Its why I've been reading about wheel building and building my own).

The smaller DS flange spacing on the T11s will make the wheel less stiff laterally and will increase the tension differential. Some hub makers are addressing the latter by also moving the NDS flange out (or simply using the same old shell, shifted to the left with different end cap spacing and a longer freehub). That make the stiffness reduction less but makes the tension differential greater. But many were doing essentially the same thing with their Campy hubs, and they worked ok for the most part.

If your rim can handle more than the typical 120kgf tension then you can crank up the tension on the DS in order to get the NDS high enough. If it's one that's limited to 110kgf, you're probably out of luck. Some people will put locktite on NDS nipples but that only keeps the nipple from looseing when the spoke is detensioned. It does not prevent the flex that will cause the spoke to break at the nipple.

If you have never had a NDS spoke break like that, chances are that you'll be ok with the T11 spacing.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:25 pm 
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Posts: 380
bm0p700f wrote:
A 40H hub would be a tandem hub or BMX but the OLD on those are completley wrong and will not fit in you frame. A BMX hub also use a solid axle.

Give up on 2:1 unless you are going to use a very stiff rim i.e. stiffer than a A23. The H + plus son archetype might be stiff enough. Not to sure how it compares to the HED C2. I would just use 2x both sides and just stress relieve very throughly and use a spoke tension meter to ensure the NDS tesnions are very even as they will be low. I have managed sucessful builds with NDS tensions as low as you wil get using those hubs (miche hubs and DT Swiss RR415 rims)

In fact though 2x ds and 3x NDS will improve tension balance a bit so do this on a 28 spoke rear wheel.

Hi bm0p700f, I like the 2xDS, 3xNDS, 28H idea :-)

How close are the DS/NDS spoke tensions, and what tension values would you expect, with this arrangement ... and what sapim spokes would you use DS and NDS ...

Also, would you say the H + son is a better rim than the A23 ...


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:03 am 
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Posts: 3318
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
The tension blance with the BHS hub should be about 45-46% depending on rim chosen and lacing pattern. If 1150N DS tension is used then 517N of NDS tension should result if laced 2x both sides. If you do 2x/3x NDS tension will go up by 30N or so, better than a kick in the teeth. Eric's previous statement about 580N of NDS is needed to stop these spoke loosing tension is only partly true. My personal rear wheel on my winter bike has an NDS tension of 480N and no thread locker. Spokes just dipped in 3 n 1 oil and laced//tesnioned up. No unwind after 1000+ miles, so there probably won't be any either now. So with a BHS hub your NDS tension will be low but I would not worry about that if you have a smooth riding style. If your riding style is not smooth then simply learn to be smoother. Just stress relieve and make sure the NDS tension is even to <5%. As for spokes Race DS and Laser NDS would be a standard pattern for stiffness and long spoke life but as the velocity A23 and archetype rims are pretty stiff you would be alright with laser both sides.

The Archetype rim is stiffer than the Velocity A23. Archetypes are 5mm deeper and roughly 30g heavier. All the archetypes I have had are ~480g. All the A23 are 447-450g. I like both rims but the A23 I so prefer the A23 as it's lighter and in silver is available in 24H drillings. The arvhetype in the U.K at least can only be bought in silver in 28H, 32H and 36H drillings which is a bit restrictive.

@kya my post about you using too much lube (spoke lube that is) is not meant as a critisim. You are doing the right things it just I think you worry about wind up too much and are spending to much time trying to avoid it. All I do is dip spoke thread in a light oil and build. I do not get wind up even with CX-ray or Laser spokes. Also I am at a loss as to why your wheels are loosing tension. I have never had that so it a problem I have never had to solve. That does not help you.

Spokes loose tension because the nipples have unwound in which case they would have to all unwind by the same ammount for the wheel to remain true and in dish which is odd. I would rebuild the wheels making sure the spokes are aligned as Thisisthetest has suggested. You will spot any misalignment when building and if you do stop and remove it. Alot of getting proper spoke alignement involves manipulating the spoke in what ever way is needed.



Thisisatest has posted the answer somewhere in his post but you will have to discect it to find which answer is appicable to you.

_________________
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:35 am 
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Posts: 380
bm0p700f wrote:
The tension blance with the BHS hub should be about 45-46% depending on rim chosen and lacing pattern. If 1150N DS tension is used then 517N of NDS tension should result if laced 2x both sides. If you do 2x/3x NDS tension will go up by 30N or so, better than a kick in the teeth. Eric's previous statement about 580N of NDS is needed to stop these spoke loosing tension is only partly true. My personal rear wheel on my winter bike has an NDS tension of 480N and no thread locker. Spokes just dipped in 3 n 1 oil and laced//tesnioned up. No unwind after 1000+ miles, so there probably won't be any either now. So with a BHS hub your NDS tension will be low but I would not worry about that if you have a smooth riding style. If your riding style is not smooth then simply learn to be smoother. Just stress relieve and make sure the NDS tension is even to <5%. As for spokes Race DS and Laser NDS would be a standard pattern for stiffness and long spoke life but as the velocity A23 and archetype rims are pretty stiff you would be alright with laser both sides.

The Archetype rim is stiffer than the Velocity A23. Archetypes are 5mm deeper and roughly 30g heavier. All the archetypes I have had are ~480g. All the A23 are 447-450g. I like both rims but the A23 I so prefer the A23 as it's lighter and in silver is available in 24H drillings. The arvhetype in the U.K at least can only be bought in silver in 28H, 32H and 36H drillings which is a bit restrictive.

If a 24H 2:1 2xDS/Radial NDS lacing is used with the BHS 218 hub what DS/NDS spoke tensions would you expect ...

What would be the best hubs to use with a 28H 2xDS/3xNDS lacing ... or will they all tend to give a 45-46% balance ...


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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:35 am 


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