The wheelbuilding thread

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

Moderator: robbosmans

Forum rules
The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
Illuminate
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:18 am
Location: Australia

by Illuminate

Why do you want to use radial NDS? This further increases the tension imbalance between DS/NDS and halves the number of spokes transferring torque to the rim. Just wondering what the advantages were?

Chasseur
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:58 pm

by Chasseur

I built up a rear wheel with a BHS 211, AC 2218 rim, 28 spoke 2x, Sapim Race DS/Laser NDS. FWIW this is a cx race wheelset and I'm 165.

The DS at build was 123 kgf, NDS 56, but when I mounted a Hutch Piranha 2 the DS went to 78 and the NDS was scary non-existent. So with the tire on (those AC beadlocks really work, tire just sits up in that channel) I've retensioned to 110 DS/50 NDS. I have questions: 1) will my wheel just pringle when I take the tire off? Pull through? Explode?! If the wheel will really be unstable or damaged by unseating the tire, I guess I'd have to detension to change tires which is uh, really impractical for a cx race wheelset, and 2) if the wheel is really that compromised, I could lower the mounted tension to, say, 100 DS/45 DS. If I used Spoke Prep, should I also locktite that NDS at that tension? Any guesses how low a tension that NDS could reasonably tolerate?

Sorry to crosspost this from the AC 2218 thread, but it got no responses there, and I'd really enjoy your feedback. I've seen loads of comment out there in various forums about *why this happens*, and I get all that. Now I understand that a lighter tubeless rim really benefits from a hub with more balanced dimensions. But here I am, so I'm looking for is practical advice on dealing with _this_ wheelbuild- Thanks!

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



bm0p700f
in the industry
Posts: 5777
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Contact:

by bm0p700f

Pull the tyre of and see. In short I never retension after mounting a tyre. IF I find a tension drop is too big it is time to find another tyre.

eric
Posts: 2196
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Contact:

by eric

aerobikewheels wrote:The hub will work with radial lacing NDS but can't find info on heads in or heads out, i prefer the first one, to make the flange effectively a little wider.
What are your opinions?


I'm not a fan of radial NDS, heads in or out. 2x gets the bracing angle halfway between heads in and heads out (on average). And you get the benefits of spokes crossing- torque transfer and spokes bracing each other at the cross.

Heads in will increase the bracing angle at the cost of increased tension differential and possibly too low tension.
If I were to use it, it'd be only on hubs with a small NDS flange offset. If the hub is like BHS with wide NDS flange spacing the tension could be too low.

Heads in does mean that the countersink will most likely be on the outside of the flange and the spoke will seat into the flange better. Deep countersinks require washers if the head it on the countersunk side (usually the outside).

Chasseur
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:58 pm

by Chasseur

Thanks, bm0p700f. Changing tires may be the best option here I guess. Too bad I sunk $150 into those tires.

I thought I might see a difference of 20 or 25 kgf in tension with mounting, but it's 45+ kgf, which is pretty crazy. I retensioned with the tire uninflated to 109/48 and pulled the beads. Boing! Its now 156/68. Beautifully even tension, but out of dish. Man, this is bs.

campbellrae
Posts: 545
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:20 am
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

by campbellrae

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere already, but does anyone have a link to any good articles on spoke lacing patterns? I have just bought a Park TS-2.2 and plan on learning over the winter. But would really like to learn some more about the advantages and disadvantages of the different spoking patterns.

Cheers,

Campbell.

eric
Posts: 2196
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Contact:

by eric

Jobst Brandt's book has a lot of good info about lacing and wheel construction in general.

Sheldon brown's page has some good lacing pattern info: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

User avatar
kavitator
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Slovenia---that forest land

by kavitator

Chasseur wrote:Thanks, bm0p700f. Changing tires may be the best option here I guess. Too bad I sunk $150 into those tires.

I thought I might see a difference of 20 or 25 kgf in tension with mounting, but it's 45+ kgf, which is pretty crazy. I retensioned with the tire uninflated to 109/48 and pulled the beads. Boing! Its now 156/68. Beautifully even tension, but out of dish. Man, this is bs.


At beginning spoke tension could be big...afterr time when tire sattle down it wont be so big.
Try leave inflated tire for maby one day and see how much spoke tension is.

I have problem woth frm333 mtb rims. Big tensipn drop.
Also carbon clinchers height 50mm has lityle lower tension after tire is inflated.
And that could push wheel offcenter to the Ds.

Chasseur
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:58 pm

by Chasseur

Thanks! Yeah, I've been hoping the bead and casing will stretch a little. In fact, for the front wheel I "pre-stretched" the tire inflated on a regular tubed rim for a few days, but it had the same drop as the rear, 40+ kgf. Less concerned there as I built it to 105 kgf, it's still in the 60s and should be fine, I'd think. I will monitor the issue and can report back.

AC instructs you to use 1 layer of their narrow spoke hole cover (strapping) tape, then 2 layers of their very very thin tubeless rim tape over that. I suppose I could take 1 layer of the rim tape off to see how much that decreases the tension drop, if at all. Obviously the tire fit is very tight, even after plenty of soap everywhere, it took about 110 psi and some persuasion to get the beads seated all the way round.

qayum
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:41 am

by qayum

Hey guys, I just have a question about building wheels with a "mismatched" hubset. I have a pair of DT180 hubs, although they're 28h front and 24h rear. Is it acceptable to build a wheelset with these?

I'm also a light rider... just 60kg. I want a lighter wheelset for road racing.
Maybe build the DT180s with Stans Alpha A340 rims and CX-Ray spokes.

Does this make a difference for weight or aerodynamics?

pushstart
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:12 am

by pushstart

While you could do this, it would definitely be a "backwards" wheelset. Typically, I would say that is way over-built for the front (for your weight); however, if you are using Alpha 340 rims, it may simply be woefully under-built in the rear. I was reading recently that those rims need an exceptionally high spoke count to make a stiff wheel, but I have no first-hand experience. How about sell the rear hub and get a 32h or 28h for the 340, or sell the front and get a 20h or 24h to pair with a stiffer rim.

As for spokes, November did some research on the benefit of CX-Ray (over Laser?) and it was negligible. Since those aren't aero rims, seems that there would be little value in spending 3x the cost for cx-ray unless you just like how they look or how easy they are to build with (both perfectly valid reasons!). So, I would use Laser spokes.

qayum
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:41 am

by qayum

pushstart wrote:While you could do this, it would definitely be a "backwards" wheelset. Typically, I would say that is way over-built for the front (for your weight); however, if you are using Alpha 340 rims, it may simply be woefully under-built in the rear. I was reading recently that those rims need an exceptionally high spoke count to make a stiff wheel, but I have no first-hand experience. How about sell the rear hub and get a 32h or 28h for the 340, or sell the front and get a 20h or 24h to pair with a stiffer rim.

As for spokes, November did some research on the benefit of CX-Ray (over Laser?) and it was negligible. Since those aren't aero rims, seems that there would be little value in spending 3x the cost for cx-ray unless you just like how they look or how easy they are to build with (both perfectly valid reasons!). So, I would use Laser spokes.


Hey, that's some good advice, thank you! I was actually considering buying that specific backward DT180 hubset because the owner just wanted to get rid of at at a great price. Don't know if it's worth the trouble anymore.

Maybe I'll try some Dura Ace 24/28h hubs? Probably can't go wrong there, right?

I just want the Alpha 340 rims because they're the lightest rims I can find on the internet. Any other suggestions? I'm riding a set of Flo 30 with PowerTap, and they're really comfy for training, but feel they're a little sluggish at almost 1700 grams. I primarily want a racing wheelset. Should I try out some factory built wheels like the Dura Ace 9000 C24? Go aero with a set of used Dura Ace 7900 C50 tubulars?

Also found these wheels on PBK, called Spada Tivan 50 and they seem like a great value. 1,095g a pair... how!? No reviews about them at all and they're only distributed in Europe. No idea if these are a good choice.

thprice
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:34 am

by thprice

qayum: At 60 kg you are a light weight. If you riding style and roads are 'gentle' a set of 20/24 Alpha 340s maybe suitable.
As a reference, I am 80 kg and not gentle (known to kill rear wheels) ... have had a set of 24/28 Alpha 340s for a couple of years.
I recently changed the rear rim to an Alpha 400, but the front is still good as day one. Guessing 20,000 km travelled on them.
Either Dura-Ace 24/28 or Tune Mig/Mag 24/28 hubs with Alpha 340 rims would be good choices.
20/24 will save you ~20g per wheel (a sip of water) ... for Alpha rims, keep the extra 4 spokes per hub
A rear Alpha 400 rim and Race spokes on the DS rear will add strength if you have 'hammer legs'.

qayum
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:41 am

by qayum

thprice wrote:qayum: At 60 kg you are a light weight. If you riding style and roads are 'gentle' a set of 20/24 Alpha 340s maybe suitable.
As a reference, I am 80 kg and not gentle (known to kill rear wheels) ... have had a set of 24/28 Alpha 340s for a couple of years.
I recently changed the rear rim to an Alpha 400, but the front is still good as day one. Guessing 20,000 km travelled on them.
Either Dura-Ace 24/28 or Tune Mig/Mag 24/28 hubs with Alpha 340 rims would be good choices.
20/24 will save you ~20g per wheel (a sip of water) ... for Alpha rims, keep the extra 4 spokes per hub
A rear Alpha 400 rim and Race spokes on the DS rear will add strength if you have 'hammer legs'.


Do you feel a difference when climbing with you lightly built Alpha 340s? Versus a similar set of wheels in the 1600gram range (Flo 30s). I know the lighter the rim is, the faster you'll spin... But will it be very noticeable and a better choice for racing?

thprice
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:34 am

by thprice

qayum wrote:Do you feel a difference when climbing ...
Wheelset #1: Tune Mig/Mag 24/28 hubs, Alpha 340/400 rims
Wheelset #2: DuraAce 28/32 hubs, DT Swiss 440 rims (built for touring)
Not a club racer, but yes I can tell the difference between these riding rolling hills or Cat climbs.
Note: I also have Farsports 24mm deep tubbies on Tune Mig/Mag ... less than 1 kg wheelset. If it is an important climb (looking for a Strava PB, or a little competition among friends :lol: ) these are my weapon of choice.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Post Reply