The wheelbuilding thread

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

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pushstart
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by pushstart

Ok, that is helpful; thanks! Yeah, I have certainly had lower-tension wheels (Stans, usually) that have worked fine, but have also had some issues with spokes breaking on disc-brake front wheels that I have attributed to lower-than-optimal tension.

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

bm0p700f wrote:Disc brake forces are maybe up to ten times pedaling torque so these can be fatigue inducing.

Radial stiffness of a spoke wheel is huge and the tyre takes the vertical sudden loading so lumps and bumps should not cause to much fatigue but over time I suppose it adds up. Lateral flex must cause bigger tension changes and can result in NDS spokes going slack. That is fatigue inducing and quickly. So personally I think lateral loads do spokes in which is why laterally stiff wheels last.


If one laces a 2-1 rear, the tension is near equal both sides.. hence no NDS slackness braking. No de-tensioning and resultant head-slap during the wheel cycle.... longer spoke life.
Litespeed 2000 Appalachian 61 cm
Litespeed 1998 Blue Ridge 61cm

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That is my story and I'm stick'n to it.

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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

2:! lacing as talked about many times works best if a hub with 46mm + ideally 50mm NDS flange to centre spacing is used. On a standard hub the tension balance may be nearly 100% but so what as the wheel is less stiff than if convetnial lacing is used. Add to that NDS spokes only go slack on wheels with poor lateral stiffness like Open Pro rimmed wheels or similar. Even narrow deeper rims like the Kinlin XR-300 in 24 drilling with a hub of good geometry does nto have great lateral stiffness.

Wide medium depth rims like the Pacenti SL23, H plus Son archetype Kinlin XC-279 are so stiff that even in 24 drilling the ammount of lateral flex means the NDS spokes are not going to go slack.

I have done one 2:1 laced wheel for myself but with a custom royce hub with a 46mm NDS flange to centre of hub spacing. This wheel in 24 drilling with a Pacenti SL23 is extremely stiff possibly the stiffest I have ever built. Tension balance is around 70% on this wheel but that is better than having a less stiff wheel with 100% tension balance in terms of power transfer and spoke life.

Disc brake wheels should never have radial lacing. So your statement winter rider needs alot of caveats.

kulivontot
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by kulivontot

Triplet lacing improves durability, but does nothing for stiffness, no? Same for using different spoke patterns on DS/NDS. My understanding is that only flange spacing changes wheel stiffness considerably.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Exactly my point. With 2:1 lacing you can move the NDS flange so far out that it more than makes up for the lack of NDS spokes. As for improving the life of the spokes I am not so sure as there are too many variables that affect spoke life.

jooo
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by jooo

bm0p700f wrote:So your statement ... needs alot of caveats.

But you posted this right before it, which could be seen as straight up wrong, or at least needing a mountain of caveats.
bm0p700f wrote:Disc brake wheels should never have radial lacing.

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

2-1's are very durable.... superior to conventional lacings I find riding them. NDS's don't have to be laced radial either.

To "keyboard" wheelbuilding with the attendant 'chiming in' parrots is well removed from real world use of bike wheels.

:noidea: Nuff said.
Litespeed 2000 Appalachian 61 cm
Litespeed 1998 Blue Ridge 61cm

Fitness rider.. 1 yr from seven decades age.

That is my story and I'm stick'n to it.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Winter rider I do 2:1 lacing and like it but only with hubs specially designed for it other wise the tension balance improvement is negated by a loss in lateral stiffness. Over all then the 2:1 lacing on convential hubs or 2:1 lacing road hubs with convenetial geometry ends up being a neutral move at best.

The thread joo had just been about disc brake wheels and then winterrider started talking about 2:1 lacing again. So I was pointing out that 2:1 lacing is no good for disc brake wheels which should be laced 2x minium or 3x. You cannot do a 2:1 laced disc brake wheel 2x NDS as you do not have enough spokes unless you have at least 9 spokes NDS meaning a 27H rims do you lnow where to get one or 30H rim e.t.c you get the point now don't you. Even then it would be no good as the NDS has the job of transfering alot of braking torque so you really want the same crossing both sides. Also remember many disc brake hubs have spacing like 20mm DS and 34mm NDS you get quite decent tension balance anyway so 2:1 lacing would leave higher tension on the NDS to the DS. Is that enough reasons not to do it.

eric
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by eric

I have seen front disc wheels laced some cross on the disc side and radial on the other. I have one on my Specialized Epic.

On the rear I suppose with a stiff large diameter hub you could lace radial on the NDS side even though its got the disc, on the theory that the hub will transmit all the braking force to the crossed DS spokes.

But on the rear the disc will most likely prevent the NDS flange from being out as far as it needs to keep the wheel laterally stiff when laced 2:1.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Yes I have seen that spec wheel too. I still think it is a comprimise in favour of asthetics. Radial lacing in a disc brake wheel cannot improve the functionality of the wheel one little bit.

eric
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by eric

Agreed. I wouldn't have done it that way, just pointing out that the cross on one side seems to be enough for the disc forces... at least for the warranty period.

tooFATtoRIDE
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by tooFATtoRIDE

Hi,
What parts do I need to convert the Tune King hub from 20mm end cups to 15mm so that it fits RS Pike forks?
Thanks

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kavitator
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by kavitator

Go with radial on one side of disc brake rim and you get overload spokes - breaking spokes

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F45
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by F45

I'm plotting my next wheel build. I have a set of 20/24 XR270 in black. I'm thinking, BHS SL 210 16:8 rear hub and SLFW85 front, both in black. For the spokes, CN Aero424 in RED. Black nipples. That should look badass. And be strong, light, etc....

edit - 1415 grams. The 20 hole rim is 460 grams; the 24 hole is 440g.

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eric
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by eric

The SL210 has a fairly wide NDS flange spacing but not nearly as wide as a dedicated 2:1 hub. So you will lose some lateral stiffness vs a 1:1 lacing. Your riding/pedalling style and weight will determine how much of an issue it is for you.

BHS has their OC445 rims which are similar to the xr270 but with the spoke holes offset 2.5mm. This reduces the tension differential between DS and NDS. I just ordered one of those rims and an SL210 today and have spokecalc up.

With my planned lacing 28h 3x DS 2x NDS, NDS tension is 55% of DS with the offset and 47% without. Laced 2x on the DS it'd be slightly better.

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