The wheelbuilding thread

[ryker]

Problem is that 3mm past the nipple means you may be cutting new threads in your spoke. When I thread a DT nipple onto a DT spoke, it bottoms out with under 2mm exposed beyond the nipple.

[Calnago]

Agreed... I measured exactly how far a DT comp spoke could extend past the tip of a DT brass nipple and can confirm that it was right around 2mm. 3mm would be too much, or if it does work, you've gotten lucky.

[ryker]

IMO if you are able to thread 3mm past the nipple without cutting new threads, you would want to inspect the spoke threads with a magnifying glass. It could be the case that the spoke has been cut/rolled across a butting boundary and the last threads may not stand as tall as the rest. I have seen this before. So, to me, 3mm sounds like a problem somewhere. YMMV

[almostweenie]

Ive blown 2 days off doing research for my next wheelset. I figure I should post my build options and see what people have to say.

Background:

I'm trying to put together a 14lb bike. I have a Sram red part group and a reasonably light frame. Also, parts include things like woodman carbo el seatpost, Kcnc C7 brakeset, San Marco Aspide Carbon FX saddle, mostly standard stuff, with boutique item here and there. I also work in the industry, thus being able to afford some nice toys.

I weigh about 145lbs. I do not race! Average between 16 and 26mph. There are a LOT of hills where I will be riding. I dont own a car. I commute everywhere. Though, this bike would only be for road rides and commuting to work where I can put the bike inside. I live in Southern California (ie no rain). I also own a Gunnar Roadie, about 19lbs without widgets, which is my everyday ride. I want this new bike for sometimes commuting and my recreational rides on the weekend. The roads are definitely not great here and i ride in the city where they can be very bad. I enjoy longer road rides (40-70miles) when I have the opportunity and want to break into Randonneuring. I know light weight bikes and Randonneuring are about as far apart as one can get. I'm crazy that way. I also have done fully loaded ultra light weight touring on my carbon road bike. Yeah crazy.

My current build is something along these lines.

front hub Tune mig 20hole 75g
rear hub Tune Mag 24hole 170g
Spokes Dt Swiss Revolutions 44 spokes 181.5g
Nipples Dt Swiss Alu standard 44 nipples 13.75g
R Rim 24 hole Kinlin Xr19w 409g
F rim 20 hole Kinlin xr19w 409g
skewers Far and Near ti Road Skewers 46g
Tape Velox 16g?

I am thinking Radial in the front 2x cross on the drive side, radial non drive side. Please be gentle, im not a wheelbuilder.


Here are my questions:

1) I was scared off of using Stans 340s because of the problems of blowing off tires. I heard from a distributor, that it is a serious problem with the rims. It seems like many people have had zero problems with them, then you read a huge thread about how they are a serious problem. I am interested in using Tubeless, but not sold on the maturity of the technology yet. Also, I was told if I was going to run these 20/24 would be too low. I was recommended 24/28. Convince me one way or the other of using these rims.

2) I was also scared out of using the Kinlin xr-200 rims. Mostly because one of the distributors said they would not recommend 20/24 lacing. They were saying 24/28 at least. I am playing with the idea of light weight vs durability. I will probably not keep these wheels when I sell the bike, which I get a new bike every 4 or 5 years. What is the WW opinion of Kinlin xr-200s laced up to Tune mig/mag 20/24, for the type of riding I mentioned.

3) For the above reasons, I decided to go with the XR19ws, will 20/24 be durable enough on these rims? I dont want to have to be truing them constantly, I would have to get someone else to do it for me. I will have the best wheelbuilder I know build them up.
I'm not going to lie, I want a 24hole rear hub because I want to use a gold Tune Mag. I dont have access to the 28hole version of the hub just the 24. It will match my bike nicely. I can be convinced that the durability of going 20/24 for my type of riding is unsuitable for that hub. I could also get a Chris King r45 gold rear hub 28, but its more expensive and weighs a lot more.

3) I am not exactly sold on the hubs, though they are my number 1 choice for weight, duability, cost. If going with something like the Orc UL would be a better rear hub, I could be convinced of that. Weigh a little more, but if the durability for my type of riding is worth it, I could do it. If i went with a slightly heavier hub, could I then go with 20/24 spoke count? (I couldnt have the gold, but Red would also work)


Thanks for reading though my ideas, thoughts?

[wrcompositi]

Does anybody know the elbow height of Sapim spoke?

DT, Pillar and CN's spokes are more or less identical in this dimension(6.2mm elbow for 14g spokes)，I've never used Sapim spokes and wonder if they're any different?

Is there such a scenario that certain hubs' flanges favor a specifc brand of spokes?

[HillRPete]

Don't skimp on single-digit grams on rando/commute gear. The more you trust your gear, the less "just in case" you will have to carry. A few spokes weigh next to nothing. Damaging your wheel in a pothole is no easy roadside repair. You can still have a light bike, but with some "margin of error". If you need the golden 28h Tune hub, order it from overseas, if you must.

[WMW]

I've had very good luck with the XR200. It's on some customer bikes >20k miles and still going strong. I put about 8k miles on a set of my own... 20f, 28r and 170 lbs... with no problems. They are narrow, which is not in vogue, but it's a fine rim. They are ~25g lighter than the XR19W on average.

With the 11spd dish though, I don't know that dropping to 24r is smart... but 20f should be fine. Go 28r. One way you could save a little weight at more $ is to use Sapim CX-Supers, with CX-Rays on the DS rear. If you are going to use nice hubs don't skimp on spokes. The rims aren't very aero, but take the aero benefit that you can. 3x-radial with 28h.

The Stan's 340 is stiffer so you could go 18f and 24r. It's a shame about the random occasional blow-off. I was hoping to come up with a protocol for preventing that, but I think it just needs a bead hook if you want to be totally secure... or use tubeless tires.

I'd lean towards Alchemy hubs... US made with better service, and better build dimensions.

[xis]

3mm past the top of the nipple is a lot. If I got a spoke length that wrong, I would rebuild the wheel with shorter spokes before giving it to my customer.

Yes, I've decided to have the spokes cut down to the correct length and re-threaded. Thanks.

[eric]

Why are you putting heavy Velox rim strips on weight weenie wheels? Rox or veloplugs.

But if it's a commuting/recreational bike like you say, you don't want weight weenie wheels. You want solid stuff that isn't going to break. And since you don't true your own wheels you need even more solid stuff.

I'd go to rims that are a bit stiffer such as XR270s or some of the new wider rims. The weight penalty is so small that you'll never notice it. I weigh the same and use XR270s 20/28 on BHS hubs for training and some races. The wheels still come out in the low 1400g range but they're solid. I have lighter race wheels and can feel the difference when I pick up the bike but not in performance. The math says there is some but it's small.

[pushstart]

I second the rec for XR270 wheels. Before switching to disc, I was commuting on a set of XR270s on BHS hubs with Sapim Laser spokes (don't waste your money on CX Ray unless you want it for aesthetics). I had these setup tubeless with yellow tape. Trivial to setup tubeless.

I also have a set of XR300 wheels (which I did put cx rays on ... for aesthetics) that are my backup road wheels. Also tubeless. 20/28 for me but I weigh more at 175lbs. I definitely notice the front wheel flexing on hill climbs or sprints, though, so makes me think that this would be an even bigger issue with less stiff rims. In retrospect I would use XR270 instead as there is weight savings there.

I will get flamed for saying it, but I will say that I don't see a huge advantage for road tubeless. I have had just as many flats on Hutchinson Fusion tires w/ sealant as I had on gatorskins and the overall weight is greater. And while you can run them lower psi in theory, they have stiffer sidewalls so they don't really feel any better to me. Anyway, I not saying it is worthless, but it's not the obvious choice that it is for mtb or cx for me.

[almostweenie]

I've had very good luck with the XR200. It's on some customer bikes >20k miles and still going strong. I put about 8k miles on a set of my own... 20f, 28r and 170 lbs... with no problems. They are narrow, which is not in vogue, but it's a fine rim. They are ~25g lighter than the XR19W on average.

With the 11spd dish though, I don't know that dropping to 24r is smart... but 20f should be fine. Go 28r. One way you could save a little weight at more $ is to use Sapim CX-Supers, with CX-Rays on the DS rear. If you are going to use nice hubs don't skimp on spokes. The rims aren't very aero, but take the aero benefit that you can. 3x-radial with 28h.

The Stan's 340 is stiffer so you could go 18f and 24r. It's a shame about the random occasional blow-off. I was hoping to come up with a protocol for preventing that, but I think it just needs a bead hook if you want to be totally secure... or use tubeless tires.

I'd lean towards Alchemy hubs... US made with better service, and better build dimensions.

Thanks so much for responding to my post, means a great deal to me to actually have a wheelbuilder respond.

Couple questions.

1) Seems like your more fond of the xr200 than the xr19w. Mostly trying to go with the xr19w to have a slightly stiffer wheel so I could get away with a 20/24 build. Would you say that the xr19w build 20/24 would be durable enough for my application? Or would you still recommend going 20/28? If so I just cant use the gold tune hub I had my heart set on. Fairwheel doesnt carry the gold tune 170 in 28hole.


2) Also, sounds like you think Alchemy is a better bet over tune 170s. Is it just for my application? Care to expand on that? Would you go Elf/Orc Ul? I'm a bit hesitant about the Orc UL, if for no other reason its only been out a month. Also, I'm not sure I can get a industry price on the hubs.

3) Finally, part of the reason I'm trying to stay away from bladed spokes is because, its more of a pain to true them. Its a lot easier for my mechanics to true round spokes. Also, because im not a big guy who will be building a light build, ive heard problems about crosswinds using bladed spokes and really light bikes with light riders. Any thoughts on this?

[istigatrice]

2) Also, sounds like you think Alchemy is a better bet over tune 170s. Is it just for my application? Care to expand on that? Would you go Elf/Orc Ul? I'm a bit hesitant about the Orc UL, if for no other reason its only been out a month. Also, I'm not sure I can get a industry price on the hubs.

Alchemy hubs will have a better flange spacing, meaning that it'll be stiffer and/or have a better DS/NDS tension ratio

[eric]

CXrays are no more trouble to true than Lasers (same cross section area). Both need to be held to prevent wind up. But with the bladed spokes you can see that they're winding up (and if you use the overshoot technique, the bladed spoke makes it easy to get the spoke exactly straight). With round spokes you can't see it. You'll just hear it when you ride the first time.

I don't think that bladed spokes on their own make much of a difference in side winds. Not like deep section rims can.

[mentok]

i guess it doesn't really make much difference in the end, but it comes down to preference - i'd rather be building with bladed spokes over lasers. more handling of tools, but you never have to wonder about wind up.

[wrcompositi]

CXrays are no more trouble to true than Lasers (same cross section area). Both need to be held to prevent wind up. But with the bladed spokes you can see that they're winding up (and if you use the overshoot technique, the bladed spoke makes it easy to get the spoke exactly straight). With round spokes you can't see it. You'll just hear it when you ride the first time.

When I used DT Revos, I put a small dot near the thread with paint marker so I can observed the winding easily. Even if I thoroughly lubricated the threads and nipples, after the tension was raised to more than 110~120kgf, the thin spokes would twist up to 1/2 turn before the nipple started to turn on thread. That's my only experience with 2.0-1.5 spokes, and I prefer bladed spokes nowadays. But if I want a subtle look, I would choose round spokes to match box rims.