The wheelbuilding thread

[manninen]

could be.


left from valvehole goes to DS like in this picture?

[eric]

Can anyone fine the problem with this wheel build from looking at this photo?

Angled spoke holes in the rim, laced with DS spokes going to the NDS aimed holes.

[Zigmeister]

^See, even some anonymous internet poster on a forum who knows some wheel building can see this with their own two eyes from a single photo. The wheelbuilder, even after sending them multiple photos of 3 bad wheels they built like this, said they can't see if it is offset drilled or not. Credibility...is now zero.

They said they would be willing to take them back and pay shipping and resolve any issues. But guess what, not happening, because imagine just would I will end up doing anyway since they strung 3 of 4 wheels up incorrectly, and tensioned way below the specs, wrong length spokes on one wheel etc...I would take them back to the guy who fixed all these problems anyway to double check their shoddy work and have to pay more money anyway.

Pretty sad, cost me $300+ to fix the problems.

Thanks

[eric]

I'm not anonymous!

It's easy to guess since that's the only thing that can be wrong in that picture. But it does look like the holes are drilled at an angle. The gap on the one side of the nipple is larger than normal. But before getting too upset I'd verify with the rim maker.

One of the best things about building your own wheels is that you know who to blame for the screwups.

[bombertodd]

Zig, with your wheel addiction I think you should learn to build your own wheels.

As Eric mentioned:

One of the best things about building your own wheels is that you know who to blame for the screwups.

He's 100% correct. I'm still new to wheel building compared to people like Eric, but building wheels has been an amazing experience. I get exactly what I want (rim, hub, spoke tension, etc....). I really think you would like building wheels and you'll save money instead of paying people to build them for you.

[Stefano]

re: the earlier assertion by bm0p700f that the thin sapim spokes would "fatigue" earlier, I became a little interested- isn't it true that steel spokes won't stretch after achieving a certain number of load cycles? Theoretically as long as the wheel isn't underbuilt, flexiness, or the amplitude of the deformation, should have no effect on long term durability/ eventual strength of the spokes. Lemme know if I'm not making sense, basically what I'm wondering is if spoke "fatigue" is actually a real thing

[shlammed]

they would only fatigue if they weren't the proper tension and let to move around, or if you underbuilt the wheel to save a few grams.

Steel does yield when tensioned, but if you check tension after the first ride im sure you will be fine. Just don't get a super low spoke count or an ultra light rim that will let the wheel flex all over if you weigh too much for the design.

[marcopantani]

Would just like to have an ok for my first and long time planned wheel build from someone with better knowledge than me before ordering.

Rims: Stans Alpha 340 (new 385g version) 32h rear 24h front
Spokes: Sapim laser front and non drive side, sapim race drive side
Hubs: from Bikehubstore, SL210 rear and SLF71 front
Lacing: 3x rear both sides and 2x front using alu nipples

Does anyone know which erd to use for spoke calculation? I have seen 591 (official) 593 (dt swiss calculator) and 594 (wheelbuilder.com) stated.

My weight 150 lbs / 68 kg can produce about 280 watt for an hour of climbing so not a very strong rider

Use: dry weather training and some crits.

Anything to rethink?

[thprice]

... 24h front ... 2x front

The build should be fine.
Radial front lacing could be an option.

[bm0p700f]

Fatigue is not just caused by the spoke being able to move it is actually caused by the ammount of unloading during each cycle. The more unloading the quicker fatigue sets in. that is the mechanism so more flex = more fatigue which is why flexible wheels that unload there NDS spokes completely break much sooner and it also the reason why those that rock the bike alot on climbs break spokes sooner. Poor fitting of spoke or under tensioned wheels accelerate the process too.

n.b if you grasp pairs of spokes enough and squeeze hard enough you will stretch the spokes enough that tension will not be lost. I always bring wheels up to tension get them straight and stretch the hell out of them. I get a large tension drop, then even out tensions, bring up to tension again, squeeze spokes some more to ensure I have stretched them enough, true and even out tensions, e.t.c. Do this properly and your wheel will not loose spoke tension ever.

[pushstart]

Rims: Stans Alpha 340 (new 385g version) 32h rear 24h front
Spokes: Sapim laser front and non drive side, sapim race drive side
Hubs: from Bikehubstore, SL210 rear and SLF71 front
Lacing: 3x rear both sides and 2x front using alu nipples

Does anyone know which erd to use for spoke calculation? I have seen 591 (official) 593 (dt swiss calculator) and 594 (wheelbuilder.com) stated.

If you are getting conflicting numbers (and really even if you aren't) you should measure ERD yourself. I use stated numbers when I know them to have been correct from experience, though I assume that can be a little risky too. If you aren't going to measure them yourself, I would use the official as I would hate to have spokes bottom out before they are up to tension. Also, I would use polyax nipple washers (which I believe stans does/used to recommend) so you can add 1.5 to the ERD for washers. The washers make the build easier by ensuring a consistent rim-nipple interface. And help distribute load a little.

At your weight, I would think 24/28 would suffice. Personally I would do the wide (slfw81?) front hub and lace radially. (And 2x 28h rear.). I would probably also build with the stronger Laser spokes all around, rather than Race DS unless you are concerned about stiffness -- but doesn't sound like you need to be?

Sounds like a fun project!

[marcopantani]

If you are getting conflicting numbers (and really even if you aren't) you should measure ERD yourself. I use stated numbers when I know them to have been correct from experience, though I assume that can be a little risky too. If you aren't going to measure them yourself, I would use the official as I would hate to have spokes bottom out before they are up to tension. Also, I would use polyax nipple washers (which I believe stans does/used to recommend) so you can add 1.5 to the ERD for washers. The washers make the build easier by ensuring a consistent rim-nipple interface. And help distribute load a little.

At your weight, I would think 24/28 would suffice. Personally I would do the wide (slfw81?) front hub and lace radially. (And 2x 28h rear.). I would probably also build with the stronger Laser spokes all around, rather than Race DS unless you are concerned about stiffness -- but doesn't sound like you need to be?

Sounds like a fun project!

Wont´t be able to measure myself since I want to order spokes and rims from the same place to save money on shipping. There is a SLF85W front hub which has about the same center to flange width as SLF71w but larger bearings. Are larger bearings better for durability?

The thicker Race spokes should be stronger than Lasers no? Do you mean it would be sufficient with Lasers all round?

Have read on the Stans forum that the new Alpha 340 won´t need nipple washers because of the thicker spoke bed, but should maybe consider that anyway to be safe.
http://messageboard.notubes.com/viewtop ... f=2&t=3390

[pushstart]

Wont´t be able to measure myself since I want to order spokes and rims from the same place to save money on shipping. There is a SLF85W front hub which has about the same center to flange width as SLF71w but larger bearings. Are larger bearings better for durability?

An, didn't realize/remember the slf71 was wide. I think the width will be most significant. Yes, larger bearings should be more durable but I personally have not had any issues with front hub bearings, so I would not worry too much about that.

Not measuring just means you risk getting the wrong size spokes. The worst is realizing that after you have spent 3 hours on the wheel and the spokes have bottomed out before they are up to tension, so at least do yourself a favor and measure them before your build so you can return the spokes if they differ significantly from claimed.

The thicker Race spokes should be stronger than Lasers no? Do you mean it would be sufficient with Lasers all round?

The thicker Race spokes are actually weaker (1300 N/mm2 vs 1500 for Laser). They are, however, stiffer spokes. One (other) reason people like to use them over Lasers is that Lasers have more extreme windup. But you can build carefully to remove windup. On my most recent build I used little tape "flags" on the spokes so I could see the windup (and unwind them). That seemed to work really well. On my own wheels I have just felt for windup and fixed any issues after a few rides, but these were for someone else so I wanted to be as sure as possible that the spokes were not going to unwind. Anyway, I assume weight is a driving factor here which is why I suggest Lasers (and lower spoke count).

Hopefully someone that has these rims built can weigh in, as I don't want to lead you to under-building! My last rim-brake alloy wheels were 20/28 Kinlin XR300; deeper rim, but also narrower and rear was plenty stiff for sure (I weighed 180lbs when I was using those).

Have read on the Stans forum that the new Alpha 340 won´t need nipple washers because of the thicker spoke bed, but should maybe consider that anyway to be safe.
http://messageboard.notubes.com/viewtop ... f=2&t=3390

I would do it anyway, because it strengthens and simplifies build with virtually no weight (or significant $$) cost. I build all my wheels now with the round polyax washers. It may be placebo, but I have had issues with burrs or rough spoke beds breaking alloy nipples in the past.

[HillRPete]

Hey thanks everyone weighing in on vintage Mavic tubs. Maybe I'll just get a 36h 3x all around Reflex build. I have a soft spot for matching lacing, and this would complement my 36h 3x Open Pro wheelset nicely.

[hypster]

The thicker Race spokes are actually weaker (1300 N/mm2 vs 1500 for Laser). They are, however, stiffer spokes. One (other) reason people like to use them over Lasers is that Lasers have more extreme windup. But you can build carefully to remove windup. On my most recent build I used little tape "flags" on the spokes so I could see the windup (and unwind them). That seemed to work really well. On my own wheels I have just felt for windup and fixed any issues after a few rides, but these were for someone else so I wanted to be as sure as possible that the spokes were not going to unwind. Anyway, I assume weight is a driving factor here which is why I suggest Lasers (and lower spoke count).

I don't think this correct because you are not taking the cross-sectional area of the spokes into consideration. The steel in the Laser spokes is stronger because of the way the thinner spokes are work hardened but the larger cross-sectional area of Race spokes makes them stronger overall.

Race = 2.545 mm2 x 1300 N/mm2 = 3308.5 N
Laser = 1.767 mm2 x 1500 N/mm2 = 2650.5 N

EDIT:

They're both 2.0mm at the elbow where they are liable to break due to the fatigue cycle though so probably equal in terms of longevity.