The wheelbuilding thread

[g32ecs]

ahh that does look too funky.

I think I'm just going to let the wheelbuilder have at it with the spokes and stick to the real config @ 20 spokes. All I wanted to do was to save some $ and maybe some weight.

[bm0p700f]

Spoke length calculation is not straight forward and will take a wheel builder time adding to the cost. My advise just buy a cheap 20h hub you can get them for not alot. Novatec a291 are light and cheap. The money saved in time trying to work out spokes length will pay for the hub. I personally would not try this build as I know they eat up valuable time.

[WinterRider]

"however they were more frequently good than Kinlin, which did have a pretty high rate of rims being not-too-round."

This is nonsense. The only reason the Kinlin gets a rap from 'builders' is the net profit is smaller.. IE: they just are too cost efficient.

[HermesSport]

"however they were more frequently good than Kinlin, which did have a pretty high rate of rims being not-too-round."

This is nonsense. The only reason the Kinlin gets a rap from 'builders' is the net profit is smaller.. IE: they just are too cost efficient.

No, they actually are more square than other rims. They've always played it fast and loose with the amount of variation in roundness they allow to pass QC, which is something that I once observed when I had a look at a bunch of them using a fixture and flat-ground table - most firms (even other Taiwanese ones) allow between .5-1.5mm of deviation in roundness, Kinlin allowed in that case (around 2013) over 2mm a lot of the time. This makes it harder for them to yield a quality build, since you're having to overcome larger deviations from the correct shape even before you start tightening spokes.

You can build a Kinlin into a reasonably OK wheel, it just is not a job for novices. The XC279s have the benefit of being heavy with a big profile, which can cover up mistakes, but their old rims were an absolute nightmare to build well.

[Titanium22]

The current 480g archetype rims Have an erd of 583mm. For the past couple of years the archetype has averaged 480g not 470g. Lots of bad info out there on the web inclucing on the h plus son website. The first geb archetype had an erd of 595mm i think as it was lighter and had a thinner spoke nipple bed That was a few years ago now.

Eric is right my memory is wrong calculated spoke length is 282.3mm. However if you are using cx rays or laser round down. with lasers 281mm works well i have done it before. 283mm will lead to spoke wind up as you run of threads.

This must be in-correct?

First Generation ERD 595 with thinner spoke bed,
2nd Gen with thicker spoke bed would mean a larger ERD, certainly not 12mm smaller. 12mm smaller would be almost a 40mm deep rim?

Maybe its a typo?

[bm0p700f]

I meant 593mm and itis definatley this not 595mm. The old rim (1st gen) had an ERD of 592mm not 595mm. No archetype has had an ERD of 595mm. At least this error has been corrected.

Thanks for spotting the mistake.

[dmulligan]

I've read the first couple hundred and last couple dozen pages of this thread and I am about to build my first wheelset. I've done a little truing and plan to do more before all of my parts for the build arrive. I weigh 80KG and live in the foothills of the rocky mountains so I ride lots of small to medium climbs and descents and the wheels will be mostly used for club rides and the odd road race.
My plan is:
- 20/24 hole Light-Bicycle RRU55C02 55mm deep 25mm wide carbon clincher rims arriving this week
- once the rims arrive, I will measure the ERD then order CX-Ray spokes to be laced 0X front and 2X rear.
- 14mm Sapim Polyax alloy nipples (for the colour)
- pair of White Industries T11 hubs
I have the following tools:
- Roger Musson's book (Recently read front to back, will re-read soon)
- Feedback truing stand
- Parktool tensiometer
- Parktool dishing tool
- Parktool SW-40 3 corner spoke wrench
- Icetoolz Bladed Spoke Catcher
- will make Roger Musson's nipple driver shortly
Once the rest of the parts arrive I plan to patiently build the front first as I expect the front to go easier and the experience gained will be applied to the rear wheel. Making changes in small steps and destressing often.
I am torn as to how to build the tension up on the rear wheel. I was planning on trying the advice at the bottom of http://ridewmd.com/wpblog/?p=532 but as I've read some (not all) of this thread it seems that many first time builders have had trouble with NDS tension after first achieving the DS tension. The only reason I've thought about bringing the DS most of the way up first is that I've read here and at the wmd blog that the DS nipples become very hard to turn on carbon rims.
Should I use linseed oil, spoke prep or dry for the spoke threads? Should I use grease or oil for the carbon nipple holes? I have Phil Wood's waterproof grease and tri-flow oil handy already.
Thanks,
David

[sfo423]

Anyone have a set (or one) of the Gigantex 38mm x 20.5mm carbon clincher rim? I don't think they make that config anymore. Looking to find out if the braking surface is basalt-like or smooth. The braking surface on these is about 6mm below the edge (and is a raised surface).

[eric]

I use Sapim Poly-Axe nipple washers. Sometimes for just the DS, but often for all spokes. Grease the nipple where it bears on the rim or washer. Spoke prep on the threads, though grease works too.

The washers do make building the wheels a bit more difficult, especially when you screw up the pattern and have to re-lace.

I made a nipple driver from an old spoke and nipple, fitted into an aluminium rod (scavenged handle from a dental pick).

[pushstart]

I also use polyax washers. A little more trouble for lacing, but makes builds easier IMO (consistent surface for nipple). I use them on all nipples.

I used to use linseed oil; now I use motor oil. I make sure I am not winding up spokes so the threadlock qualities of linseed are not necessary and just make the house smell like a wood workshop

I have 4k miles now on my LB U45 (disc-brake) wheelset. It was super easy to build; has been rock solid. I weigh somewhere around 75kg, laced this one 2x and 28-spoke F/R so maybe a little more spoke than necessary, but it gets ridden hard.

I would just use your tensionometer to get DD tension up to 130-135kgf. Pretty straightforward.

A bit surprised you are going LB rim-brake clinchers for the mountains, but assume you have done the research on braking surface temps etc. Obviously wasn't a concern to me w/ disc.

[dmulligan]

My rims arrived today! They sure are pretty. Now I have to measure my ERD then wait again before I can build them up and try them out

I also use polyax washers. A little more trouble for lacing, but makes builds easier IMO (consistent surface for nipple). I use them on all nipples.

I have 4k miles now on my LB U45 (disc-brake) wheelset. It was super easy to build; has been rock solid.

I had read that washers are not required for carbon rims. Unfortunately I don't know where to get them locally and I already got sample nipples from BHS. Do I need them to measure ERD?

A bit surprised you are going LB rim-brake clinchers for the mountains, but assume you have done the research on braking surface temps etc. Obviously wasn't a concern to me w/ disc.

Fortunately most of my descents here are only a few minutes long. Here in Canada we tend to put our roads between mountains, not up and over them. I found very little feedback on LB brake tracks specifically, so I based it on basalt brake tracks in general and LB's use of 240C high TG resin. For my first few descents I plan on carrying a [img=http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__8297__Turnigy_Infrared_Thermometer_33_180Celsius_.html]pocket sized IR thermometer[/img] to check for heat build up once I reach the bottom. There was a measure of hope involved in my decision.

Also my brand new Cervelo R3 doesn't support disc brakes.

I use Sapim Poly-Axe nipple washers. Sometimes for just the DS, but often for all spokes. Grease the nipple where it bears on the rim or washer. Spoke prep on the threads, though grease works too.

I made a nipple driver from an old spoke and nipple, fitted into an aluminium rod (scavenged handle from a dental pick).

Do you use both washers and spoke prep with carbon rims?

I am going dust off my RC parts box to look for a piece of 2mm threaded rod. If I do then I can use it in a pin vice as an ad-hoc nipple driver. Thanks for the idea!

David

[eric]

I use both washers and spoke prep. They do different things. The washer provides a slightly larger surface for the nipple to bear against and spreads the load on the rim so it is less likely to crack. Spoke prep acts as a slight lube when turning the nipples and a slight thread locker the rest of the time, and hopefully keeps the nipple from seizing on the spoke. Grease on the threads just does the lube and anti seize.

The home made nipple driver needs a stop so the nipple only threads on a couple turns. A brass nipple turned on too far is what I used but if you have two nuts for the threaded rod that will work too.

[dmulligan]

I use both washers and spoke prep. They do different things. The washer provides a slightly larger surface for the nipple to bear against and spreads the load on the rim so it is less likely to crack. Spoke prep acts as a slight lube when turning the nipples and a slight thread locker the rest of the time, and hopefully keeps the nipple from seizing on the spoke. Grease on the threads just does the lube and anti seize.

The home made nipple driver needs a stop so the nipple only threads on a couple turns. A brass nipple turned on too far is what I used but if you have two nuts for the threaded rod that will work too.

I should have asked that as two sentences. I know what each is for, I just wanted to double check that both applied to carbon rims. I think the reason I saw someone advise against washers was due to small nipple holes. These ones are 8mm across which is plenty of room for washers. Do you use them everywhere or only drive side?

I forgot to ask about rim tape. I had my mind set on Stan's rim tape but it only seems to come in 12, 21 and 25mm. LB recommends 14-19mm tape. What should I use?

[eric]

I used them on all the spokes on my last carbon rim build. More for keeping the nipples easy to turn than to prevent cracking.

I've been using 2mil Kapton tape (2 turns). It's super thin, like Rox. I picked a width that covers from rim wall to rim wall, being careful it doesn't prevent the bead from seating. Being wide its less likely to slide over and expose a spoke hole. And hopefully it insulates the tube a bit from braking generated heat.

[bm0p700f]

I consider the spoke nipple washer to be the belt and braces approach but unnecessary. In all time I run the shop I do (I build wheels every day) I have had only one rim crack that I know of (Pacenti SL23 28H rim). I have never used spoke nipple washers. I tried once and decided it is too much trouble and would make wheel building on a commercial basis uneconomic.

I do not cast a magic spell over a wheel I build nor do I do anything "special" apart from build the wheel if you can call that special.

spoke prep is also something I never use because it does not change the fact you have to have to stress relieve the wheel and properly tension it. Using spoke prep will stop spokes unwinding but it wont stop a under relieved wheel going out of true or breaking spokes.

So while all the above things are fine to use dont feel they are an essential part of a good wheel build because they are not.