The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
eric
Posts: 2196
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Contact:

by eric

Yea, radial is easier. No thinking involved! I have to plan laced patterns out in my head.

I think a tensiometer is vital, especially with low spoke count wheels. The wheels I build now with one come out much better than the wheels I built back in the day without one. I'd go so far as to say to spend less on the hubs, using White or even BHS, so you can by the tensionmeter. It'll make all your wheels better for a lifetime.

# of spokes depends on how hard you are on wheels and how durable you want the wheels to be. I weigh 40 lbs less and I make my training rear wheels 28h because I am hard on rear wheels (steep climbs, lots of climbing, lots out of the saddle). If you don't break spokes you can get by with 24h if the rim is stiff.

You can use Lasers (or Race) round spokes for about $2/spoke savings. CXrays are flattened Lasers.

holamateo
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:03 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

by holamateo

Hi, I have a couple questions for you all. I'm building my first wheelset - it's a 20/24 Kinlin XC 279 with CX-Rays, alloy nipples and BHS hubs. I'm lacing radial in front and 2x both sides on the rear. I've been trueing my own wheels for years and have read a number of posts in this thread as well as the Jobst Brandt book and tutorials from Lennard Zinn and Jim Langley. So I've been eager to try this myself. However I've run into a couple issues that I can't find good information about.

I'm starting with my front, and now that I have it all laced up (no tension yet) my rim is out of true by about 3mm and out of round by about 1mm. I think I may have inadvertently caused this as I was spinning the nipples on with a driver I hadn't noticed that a couple nipples had not seated in the rim - so I suspect they may have pulled the rim to one side. In any event I wanted to get some feedback before I continue. Should I proceed to tensioning knowing I can pull things straight later? Or is this just making things difficult for myself? Brandt seems to recommend starting with a true wheel and gradually & evenly building up tension. I'm wondering if I should just bite the bullet and disassemble, straighten the rim by hand, and then re-lace.

My other question, is the nipples are threaded just to the point where all threads are now inside the nipple and there's still a tiny bit of slack in the spokes. Brandon at BHS helped me choose spoke lengths using an online calculator however I am also aware that manufacturing variation in rims and spokes makes this an imperfect science. I'm a little concerned if no threads are showing now, will the nipples bottom out before I'm able to get the wheel properly tensioned? Or is this fairly typical and nothing to worry about?

Thanks for any input!

by Weenie


eric
Posts: 2196
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Contact:

by eric

I like to tighten the nipples in stages until the threads just disappear. That way I know they are all threaded the same amount. I don't worry too much about trueness at that point as there is little to no tension on the spokes yet (but they're close). It sounds like that's where you are.

Once the wheel starts getting tension its true will change. At that point I alternate tensioning and truing. Do too much tension without truing and it'll take a lot of adjustment to get true.

If you want to redo it, it's easy at this stage- back off the nipples until there's say 2mm of threads visible, then start tensioning again.

holamateo
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:03 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

by holamateo

Thanks Eric, that was helpful. I spent most of the evening yesterday gradually building up tension and I was able to get things fairly true and round.

That said, it's a bit disconcerting how much pitch difference I'm finding from one spoke to the next. I'm not sure if it's because I had to pull things around since I was starting with a rim that wasn't true or round. I don't have a tensiometer yet (which I do plan to buy) but I can tell even without out it, that despite being fairly true and round now the tension is fairly inconsistant. I'm considering starting over to see if I can do a better job getting the nipples more evenly threaded.

Or perhaps I should put the front wheel aside and start on the less critical rear wheel to get more practice. I understand that nipples can take only so much threading and unthreading under tension. And the last thing I want is to worry about front wheel integrity on future rides.

BTW, I'm not having any luck finding tension specs for a 20h radial wheel. Any idea?

eric
Posts: 2196
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Contact:

by eric

I do 90-100 kgf for fronts. 120-130 (if the rim can handle 130) for the rear DS. The NDS comes out to whatever it comes out to, but if it's under 55-60 that's not enough.

I find front wheels easier to build because both sides are the same and the tension is lower than the DS.

If you have spokes that are tight and loose next to each other, you can loosen the tight spokes and tighten the loose ones.

holamateo
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:03 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

by holamateo

Awesome, thanks for the info. I'll try to balance things out a bit better while I'm waiting for the tensiometer (on order) to arrive.

I'll check with BHS for max tension specs on this rim. It sounds like this will be useful info when I start tensioning the rear DS. Thanks Eric!

bm0p700f
in the industry
Posts: 3505
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Contact:

by bm0p700f

I have built and ride wheels with NDS tension below 500N after a few thousand miles they are still fine. I do se Lasers though for such builds. I sed to worried anout low tension until I did this wheelset now having riden it for alot miles without incident I and more confident about doing this for other people now.

bobonker
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:49 am

by bobonker

Finally got around to building the Kinlin XR19W wheelset that I posted about earlier:

Front:
Kinlin XR19W 24h
24 Sapim Lasers, laced radial
24 Pillar brass nipples (red)
BHS SLF85W front hub

Rear:
Kinlin XR19W 28h
NDS: 14 Sapim Laser spokes, laced 2x
DS: 14 Sapim Race, laced 2x
28 Pillar brass nipples (red)
BHS SL211 rear hub

Final weight: 1418g

Couple of things I noticed:
1. This was my first build with an eyeletted rim. I'm a fan of eyelets. :)
2. I used Pillar hex-head brass nipples. Man, these things are so easy to work with. I really like being able to use the T-handle instead of a traditional spoke wrench.
3. The linseed oil kinda smells, but that's nothing compared to my college days where I used to actually drink this stuff (flaxseed oil)!

Now I just gotta wait 3 days for the linseed oil to dry.

Bob

Image
Image

bobonker
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:49 am

by bobonker

I let the linseed oil dry for 4+ days and went for my first ride on the XR19W build.

First impressions: Very nice! I'm really impressed with how they ride. BHS hubs are very smooth and these things were a piece of cake to handle in today's wind. They feel more vertically compliant than my Reynolds Attacks (32mm deep carbon). Ie, less road chatter being transmitted to the rider. I tried to give them a little bit of everything today (hills, hard cornering, sprints). They stayed completely true. I think the 24/28 hole count should be pretty sturdy at my weight (about 73kg).

Time to quit my day job and build these full time?? ;-)

Bob

bm0p700f
in the industry
Posts: 3505
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Contact:

by bm0p700f

I am not sure how any wheel feels more vertically complaint than another. Compliance implies delfection. the radial stiffnes of any wheel is so high that vertical deflection is not detectable by a human when riding. You maybe trying to describe something else but I am not sure what from your description. Nice wheels though and a good effort.

User avatar
SWijland
Posts: 853
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:41 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

by SWijland

bm0p700f wrote:I am not sure how any wheel feels more vertically complaint than another. Compliance implies delfection. the radial stiffnes of any wheel is so high that vertical deflection is not detectable by a human when riding


Doubt that is true. I am pretty sure that a low profile box section rim is a lot more compliant compared than a 90mm carbon rim. Also, if inflating a tire reduces spoke tension, I guess riding a wheel should definitely be able to do the same.

User avatar
WinterRider
Posts: 306
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

SWijland wrote:
bm0p700f wrote:I am not sure how any wheel feels more vertically complaint than another. Compliance implies delfection. the radial stiffnes of any wheel is so high that vertical deflection is not detectable by a human when riding


Doubt that is true. I am pretty sure that a low profile box section rim is a lot more compliant compared than a 90mm carbon rim. Also, if inflating a tire reduces spoke tension, I guess riding a wheel should definitely be able to do the same.


Not to mention the effect of the tire. "complaisance" assumed to mean some degree of dampening road shock. I'd suggest the effect of the tire many times any effect delivered from the actual rear rim build. Yet some riders are much more attuned to the bike's feel going down the road.

I'd be interested to hear to what extent tire air pressure has lowered tension readings vs the rim and lacings used.

bobonker
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:49 am

by bobonker

When I say "vertically complaint", I mean "vertically compliant". I ran the same tires (Vittoria Open EVO Corsa CX) on both wheelsets (Reynolds Attack and the XR19W) with the same tire pressures (95 psi front, 105 psi rear).

Over small bumps, the Reynolds transmit more buzz into the saddle and handlebars. It's like the shape/frequency of the vibration "curve" is the same, but the peaks are higher with the Attacks. They are light and great for climbing, but overall, I don't find them to be overly comfortable.

I know tire pressure has a really big impact, but try riding a Mavic Ksyrium SL and then a Dura-Ace C24 wheelset. The difference in comfort is pretty amazing, but a wheel is a wheel, right? ;) The C24s made my old Madone (with aluminum steerer tube) ride so much nicer than they did with the Ksyriums. A buddy of mine noticed the exact same with his Scott Addict R4. Great bike, but a fairly harsh ride that was made a whole lot more comfortable with the D-A wheels. I only sold mine because I got tired of replacing their $$$ proprietary rear spokes.

Bob

User avatar
kavitator
Posts: 1141
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Slovenia---that forest land

by kavitator

what to do if rim has straight holes for internal nipples ?
if spokes break at the edge of spoke hole becouse there is bend - specialy on deeper rims (60mm or 80mm) this angle is bigger.

Is solution lower tension?

virenque
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:08 am

by virenque

Archetype+BITEX+Sapim

Image

Image

by Weenie


Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post