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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:29 pm 
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I'll employ to triplet's for equalized tension. It after all is only a bike wheel.. each to their own. :wink:

Not saying bracing angle is not important.. it's just another factor wheel building. Comparing hubs w/o using identical components is.. IMO.. not valid.

I've no commercial interest in wheel building.... I have no clientele to market. Just a guy assembling wheels mostly for my own use. The hard water season this yr sees me shaking down some of my ideas.. rethinking some things. I've learned a few things... I've some ideas to try out.

One thing I've observed.. the more things change.. the more they stay the same.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:50 pm 
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My experience mirrors what @bm0p700f just said a couple of posts ago, at least with regards to Campy builds on DT hubs (190's in my case), and is part of the reason I feel bracing angle is more important than @WinterRider seems to be allowing for. Didn't mean to come across as judging your opinion @WinterRider, of course you're entitled to it. I was just questioning it and providing a pretty specific example attempting to explain and illustrate why I feel that bracing angle is in fact quite relevant, especially on a rear wheel with dish. If it wasn't, then the solution would be very simple... create a hub with a single flange dead smack in the middle and have all spokes head out to the rim. Try it... hmmm... maybe not.

Triplet wheels can equalize tension, but they do not do away with the bracing angle, because it's necessary and important.

I've no commercial interest in wheelbuilding either.

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Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:50 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:22 pm 
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KLabs wrote:
WinterRider wrote:
Edd shows 52% NDS tension with a 32 hole DT Swiss 240S. To arrive at left side kgf for 12.. to date I've used the left side ratio times the kgf for the right in 32H format.. and then divided by the spoke number left.
Has been accurate for what I have assembled.. with some adjustment for all outbound or inbound spokes NDS.

The DT Swiss scenario gives 62 kgf NDS for a normal laced 32H.. goes to 83 kgf lacing 12 left... assuming 120 DS tension.

Hi WinterRider, interesting and exciting ... (120 * 0.52) * (16/12) = 83.2kgf :)
Lets workout a lacing we would like to try and build it (with your 5500 hub) :)

Hey WinterRider, Calnago and bm0p700f are absolutely right, but I wish they had suggested a NDS spoke lacing for a 16:12 arrangement :)
There are articles out there but you need to do alot of reading to find the information :)

Without >6 degrees NDS bracing angle (more like >7.5), and even though NDS tension is 44%, the wheel would not be laterally stiff.
Because DS bracing angles are so small ( <4% ) the NDS brazing angle becomes critical.
It would appear that the closer the NDS bracing angle is to 6 degrees the more the DS brazing angle needs to be closer to 6 degrees.
You could say that the DS and NDS brazing angles need to add upto about >=12 degrees :)

The issue with reducing DS brazing angle and increasing NDS brazing angle is that the NDS spoke tension proportionally drops by the same ratio :)
- If DS bracing is 4 degrees and NDS is 8 degrees and the DS/NDS spokes are equal (16:16, 12:12), then DS spoke tension of 120kgf and NDS will be 60kgf.
- If DS bracing is 4 degrees and NDS is 12 degrees and the DS/NDS spokes are equal (16:16, 12:12), then DS spoke tension of 120kgf and NDS will be 40kgf ...

Using DT Swiss 240S hub, 130mm OLD, rim ERD 555mm, 32H 16:16 hub/rim, will give a 52% NDS ratio ... if DS spoke tension of 120kgf then NDS will be about 62kgf
- for 3x pattern ... DS bracing is 3.6 degrees and NDS is 6.9 degrees ... Total Bracing angle = 3.6 + 6.9 = 10.5 degrees (good torque control, average lateral wheel stiffness)
- for 1x pattern ... DS bracing is 3.8 degrees and NDS is 7.3 degrees ... Total Bracing angle = 3.8 + 7.3 = 11.1 degrees (average torque control, better than average lateral wheel stiffness)

- Spoke pattern affect Torque Control (Climbing/Sprinting) and Bracing Angle
- Flange diameter (Spoke Circle Ø) affects Bracing Angle ... especially the DS flange Spoke Circle Ø due to DS bracing angle being <6 degrees
- DS/NDS Bracing Angles affect a wheels lateral stiffness

A hub with wider Flange spacing (FTF) would be better ... ie. NDS flange offset (LCF or CLF) > 34mm and FTF > 54mm ... such as the Novatec = 38mm/56mm, BHS SL211 = 37.75mm/54.5mm, and others ...

The Chris King Classic Cross 130 OLD hub is interesting in that CLF = 37.3mm, CRF = 17.2mm, FTF = 54.5mm, Spoke Circle Ø = 53mm/53mm
- 3xDS 3xNDS 16:16 ... Total Bracing Angle = 3.7 + 7.9 = 11.6 degrees (good/excellent torque control, good lateral wheel stiffness)
- 2xDS 2xNDS 16:16 ... Total Bracing Angle = 3.8 + 8.2 = 12.0 degrees (good torque control, good/excellent lateral wheel stiffness)


Theoretically, if our hypothesis is correct, using a 32H hub, 130mm OLD, 28H Rim ERD 555m, CLF = 40.0mm, CRF = 16.0mm, FTF = 56.0mm, Spoke Circle Ø = 53mm/53mm, NDS Ratio = 40%
- if DS spoke tension = 120kgf, then NDS spoke tension = (120 * 0.40) * (16/12) = 64.0kgf, Corrected NDS Ratio = 53% (just an acceptable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ratio) :)
- 3xDS 3xNDS 16:12 lacing ... Total Bracing Angle = 3.4 + 8.5 = 11.9 degrees (good torque control, good lateral wheel stiffness) :)


Last edited by KLabs on Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:27 pm, edited 12 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:23 pm 
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Hey WinterRider, for the NDS spoke lacing for a 16:12 arrangement, lets keep it simple ... 3xDS and 3xNDS but with the 3xNDS leave out every 4th spoke :)
I believe that leaving out every 4th NDS spoke should mean that the NDS spokes should all be the same length and about the same spoke tension :)

According to the calculations it will be interesting to see what NDS ratio we get when using a Shimano 7900 32H hub, 130mm OLD, 28H rim
For a 3xDS 3xNDS 16:12 spoking ... according to the calculations we should get about ...
- NDS Tension = (120 * 0.53) * (16/12) = 84.8kgf
- Total Bracing angle = 3.8 + 7.2 = 11.0 degrees (good torque control, good wheel lateral stiffness)

For a 3xDS 2xNDS 16:12 spoking ... an alternative ...
- NDS Tension should be about 90kgf ... something like (120 * 0.59) * (16/12) >= 94.8kgf
- Total Bracing angle = 3.9 + 7.4 = 11.3 degrees (good torque control, good wheel lateral stiffness)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Winter rider. I was comparing the DT Swiss 240 and Miche hubs using the same rim and same spokes. That is vaild read my bloody post.

Also Klabs while the general theme of your post is fine the way you are adding together bracing angles is meaningless. The trigometry of what is going on does not work that way.

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Last edited by bm0p700f on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:59 pm 
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bm0p700f wrote:
Spoc calc (the excel version) will work out the bracing angle and tension balance for you although it is not set up for triplet designs.
NDS bracing angle is very important. The DT Swiss 240 road hub has short NDS flange to centre spacing. The Miche RG2 hb has similar PCD and DS flange spacing but wide NDS flange spacing. Built a wheel with the same spokes and rim on the two hubs and the wheel with the Miche hub has signifiicantly more lateral stiffness.

The miche hub will give a tension balance of 44% but is stiff. The DTSwiss 240 hub will give a tension balance of 50 or 52% with the rim I used but is like a bloody noodle - it's hopeless. So much so infact I will only use the 240 hub now with deep V- section rims like the RR585 or with shallow depth rim for low power output riders and then only in 32H drilling with Race spokes or similar.

So bracing angle is more important than tension which is why my wheels with the miche hub and very low NDS tension work. If I had biuilt the wheel with the 240 hub I would have broken spokes by now I am sure as well as rim hitting pads all the time I aply even moderate torque.

If you want equal tension ride a flip flop or a fixed wheel bike.

Hey WinterRider, bm0p700f is correct but it is due to the Total Bracing Angle effect combined with reasonable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness.
The Miche RG2 hub has much better Total Bracing Angle and acceptable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ... I shall work it out :)

Miche RG2 32H hub, 130mm OLD, flange dia=46mm, CRF= 17mm, CLF=37mm,NDS ratio = 46% (just acceptable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ratio)
- 32H Rim ERD 535mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.8 + 8.1 = 11.9 degrees (good to excellent for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 555mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.6 + 7.9 = 11.5 degrees (good for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 575mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.5 + 7.6 = 11.1 degrees (good for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 600mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.3 + 7.2 = 10.5 degrees (average for lateral wheel stiffness - Velocity A23)

DT Swiss 240S hub, 130mm OLD, flange dia=46mm, CRF= 16.9mm, CLF=32.6mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, NDS ratio = 52% (acceptable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ratio)
- 32H Rim ERD 515mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.9 + 7.5 = 11.4 degrees (good for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 535mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.7 + 7.2 = 10.9 degrees (average to good for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 555mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.6 + 6.9 = 10.5 degrees (average for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 575mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.5 + 6.7 = 10.2 degrees (average to bad for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 600mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.3 + 6.4 = 9.7 degrees (bad for lateral wheel stiffness - Velocity A23)


Last edited by KLabs on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:16 am, edited 10 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:07 am 
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Total bracing angle the way you described it is not real. It is more the sum of the tangents of the bracing angles.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:06 am 
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KLabs wrote:
Hey WinterRider, for the NDS spoke lacing for a 16:12 arrangement, lets keep it simple ... 3xDS and 3xNDS but with the 3xNDS leave out every 4th spoke :)
I believe that leaving out every 4th NDS spoke should mean that the NDS spokes should all be the same length and about the same spoke tension :)

Hey WinterRider, do you like this approach :)
... what hub(s) are you thinking of using?
... what DS Spoke tension do you want to use?

The Novatec F162SB 32H 130 looks good http://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-Road.asp
- 28H Rim ERD = 600mm, CTF = 39/18, F Ø = 49/49, FTF = 57, 9/10spd Freehub, 3xDS 3xNDS, 16:12 NDS ratio = 61.3% (Good NDS tension/detension ratio)
- Total Bracing Angle = 7.7 + 3.5 = 11.2 degrees (Good lateral wheel stiffness)

The Novatec F482SB also looks pretty good and even better than the Chris King hub (but not quality wise) :)

Chris King R45 32H 130
- 28H Rim ERD = 600mm, CTF = 34.6/18.9, F Ø = 51/51, FTF = 53.5, 9/10spd Freehub, 3xDS 3xNDS, 16:12 NDS ratio = 73.3% (Good to Very Good NDS tension/detension ratio)
- Total Bracing Angle = 6.8 + 3.7 = 10.5 degrees (Average lateral wheel stiffness)

Chris King Classic Road/Cross 32H 130
- 28H Rim ERD = 600mm, CTF = 37.3/17.2, F Ø = 53/53, FTF = 54.5, 9/10/11spd Freehub, 3xDS 3xNDS, 16:12 NDS ratio = 62.6% (Good NDS tension/detension ratio)
- Total Bracing Angle = 7.3 + 3.4 = 10.8 degrees (Average to Good lateral wheel stiffness)


Last edited by KLabs on Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:25 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:19 am 
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I have a 16 h bontrager paired spoke hub. I would like to lace it radially to a kinlin xr300. Will this work? And does some one know an easy way to figure out the spoke lengths?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:03 am 
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you will have to draw in a 3d cad program or something like that or do some maths.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:36 am 
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Gregorio wrote:
I have a 16 h bontrager paired spoke hub. I would like to lace it radially to a kinlin xr300. Will this work? And does some one know an easy way to figure out the spoke lengths?

Hi Gregorio, you can use these spoke calculators ... http://www.sapim.be/spoke-calculator ... http://lenni.info/edd/ ... http://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/fullcalc


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:19 pm 
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None of those can help with paired spokes.

Check out Spocalc instead, but be prepared to do your own measurements.

ETA: your hub may even be in the Spocalc database.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:39 pm 
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bm0p700f wrote:
That is vaild read my bloody post.


And I did..go back and reread it. My apologies.. I miss read it. Sorry for my error.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Hi All, what do you think of the Hybrid crows foot lacing ... ie. 3 spokes where each outer heads in spoke cross an a center heads in Radial spoke ... thanks :)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:41 pm 
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I have to cut 3 mm's on some DT revolution spokes. Is there enough 2.0 mm diameter left to thread them ?

I think so, but not shure...

Louis :)


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Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:41 pm 


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