The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
pushstart
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:12 am

by pushstart

Ah, that makes sense about it being a good idea for very wide flanged hubs -- thanks. As effectively all my wheels now are disc brake, this is probably not in my near future. I guess I haven't had issues with wheel stiffness with "regular" (or disc) hub dimensions, but I also recognize that I may not know what I am missing.

MNX1024
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:21 am

by MNX1024

How do I tell if a rim has offset drilling or center drilling? If it's offset, how do I tell the directions of the hole?

by Weenie


Zoose
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:42 am
Location: Arizona

by Zoose

Which rim is it? I've had rims that I didn't think were offset but Google said otherwise

pushstart
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:12 am

by pushstart

I think we are just talking about the holes being offset alternating to match which side of hub those spokes would be laced -- not like a Velilocity OC rim. You can tell if the holes are alternating offset by just looking at the rim.

Zoose
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:42 am
Location: Arizona

by Zoose

My fault, probably shouldn't get on here when I'm that tired. You're right though, you just look at the rim, usually the rim bed is a bit easier to see it.

aerobikewheels
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:00 pm

by aerobikewheels

Probably discussed before, but i tried to find it searching the forum but couldn't

Different spokes drive/Non-drive side,
Using stronger spokes on the drive side to the non drive side, As strength is less needed at the non-drive side, you can make lighter wheels. Maybe in some way comparable to the 2:1 pattern wich uses twice as much spokes on the drive side.

Anyone has usefull input on this? Thanks in advance

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I do sometimes use sapim race DS and sapim laser NDS. Some think it helps prevent spokes loosening off but I don't think so as lateral wheel stiffness is reduced and therefore it will flex more so even though the thinner spokes elongate more the lower wheel stiffness mean they still end up loosening tension by a similar amount if the same spokes where used both sides. I think the main thing it does is improve torsional stiffness for that reason I think it is worth it. It does not replicate a 2:1 lacing pattern not even close.

spud
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:52 am

by spud

I'm currently building up a set of wheels on Tune hubs. The mfg specs call for max tension at 100Kgf, which is a bit below my standard of 120 Kgf on the drive side. Are people adhering to Tune's recommendation, or are they sneaking it up a little knowing that tension will decrease when a tire is mounted and inflated?

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

If you build a wheel with 1000N DS it will fall apart so up the tension to 1200N.

goldielox
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:43 pm

by goldielox

getting ready to get a new set of wheels. thinking of something like a 90r and 50f clincher. where is there a good place to order. looking at lightbicycle and carbon cycle. should i be going with the u shape and a 27 wide. might go with a set of rims and build up a set that way. also i have seen alloy braking surface or go something else

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

tubular or clincher. I have a set of light bicycle MTB tubular rims and they built up very well 330g too for 27mm wide and 24mm deep. I am not sure about alloy brake track as even big name brands can have them delaminate not sure if the chinese ones are any better or worse or just the same in this regard. I have carbon track track on my carbon rims and with Campagnolo pads they stop well enough in the wet in fact I can't much difference from some alloy rims I have used in the wet.

Wide is fine for clinchers but with tubular rim it does restrict you to wide tubs.

goldielox
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:43 pm

by goldielox

these are the ones i'm looking at. what is your opinion
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TUBULAR-Wheels-CARBON-50mm-88mm-Front-Rear-3k-Matt-Road-bike-700C-Rim-Black-NEW-/171224588235?pt=US_Wheels_Wheelsets&var=&hash=item6d822c680f

was looking for ud instead of 3k but not that big of a deal i guess

Crescent
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:54 am

by Crescent

I'm trying to finalize the parts order my 20h/24h Bitex, Kinlin XR-200, Sapim Laser build. 2:1 lacing sounds great, but I got the 257g 1:1 20h/24h Bitex hubs for a song. I'm less than 65kg, aiming for another 6.8kg of weight loss so I should be light enough for the wheels. But I'm also a bit of a mountain goat, since these are climbing wheels after all, and I frequently use the low 28 gear inch combination so I imagine torque transfer is pretty important. Since they're flexible wheels, preserving lateral stiffness is important too.

1xDS would improve tension evenness, but I've seen a picture of a torn Bitex DS flange when used in this configuration, and torque transfer is not as good as 2xDS. So I think 1xDS is out of the question.

Am I asking for trouble with a 2xDS/0xNDS? I don't want no trouble. I hear mixed things about whether its worse, better or doesn't matter. Heads in gives more stiffness at the expense of tension balance, heads out gives more even spoke tension at the expense of stiffness. 2x is something in between, but better at torque transfer, but how much torque transfer matters on the NDS is up for debate. I'll admit, I'm attracted to radial NDS for reasons of vanity. I think it looks neater with a radial front, and it is much easier to clean the spokes and the hubs with radial lacing. Improving stiffness with these parts also sounds nice.

The safe bet seems to be 2xDS/2xNDS, which is what BHS has in their build kit. I am willing to give up vanity and the extra gram of spokes if 2xDS/2xNDS is straight out better than 2xDS/0xNDS. I'm not sure if this combination of parts can take advantage of increase stiffness from heads in radial due to tension imbalance, and while the improved balance from heads out is nice, 2xDS/2xNDS seems adequate in terms of balance, and should be better on stiffness, and torque transfer, and I imagine 20% grades and a 28 gear inch low gear puts out quite a bit of torque. Or maybe the NDS doesn't really transfer torque, I'm not really clear on that point.

So I think it comes down to either:

2xDS/2xNDS
+Tried and true
-Looks

or

2xDS/0xNDS heads-in
+Stiffness
+Ease of cleaning
+Looks
-Tension balance
-Torque transfer(?)
-Flange stress(?)

Or maybe even 2xDS/1xNDS heads-in?

So should I just stick with the recommended 2xDS/2xNDS? Not sure if torque transfer and flange stress are actual issues.

Edit: I also gather that even though radial NDS can suffer from increase tension imbalance/lower tension, it isn't as negatively affected by it since the spokes can not loosen when torque is applied between the flange and the rim, the tension can only increase. The reason why high balance is desired is for increased NDS tension to counter the loosening of tension when torque is applied between the flange and the rim. So loss of balance may not be such a big deal? But that also implies that torque is applied on the NDS, and tangential lacing definitely has the upper hand there. Right? Wrong?

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I have done a couple of 24H rear Kinlin XR 200 wheels on novatec F482 hubs they were however for 25-40kg junior riders. I really would not recomend it for a heavier rider. Keep the hubs and build them onto the stiffer Kinlin XC-279, H plus Archetype or Pacenti SL23 (the last rim is the lightest). This build maybe heavier but it will perform so much better that what you have planned. I do not believe the build you want will last or perform well as it far too flexible.

You can do radial heads in lacing on the DS it still won't correct the problem as it just lowers the NDS spoke tension. In every way this is a bad idea. radial lacing cannot improve torque transfer and with radial spokeing the NDS won't be transfering any torque at all.
Light weight wheels are over egged for "climbing" to me a climbing wheel like a wheel for any riding needs to be stiff 1) latterally 2) radially (that happens though with pretty much all spoked wheels) and 3) torsionally. Your proposed build fails on 1) and 3) and that means something that wastes energy and breaks spokes.

Sorry if I am being too blunt but if you want light and stiff go with a 300g 38mm deep carbon tubular rim then you can have everything. If you want to have a clincher then the rims I suggested will do the job just fine and you climb the mountain just as quick if not quicker (due o better power transfer) and a broken spoke really slows you down.

by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

goldilox, being a wheel building thread you are asking questions in the wrong part of the forum. No one can advise you on those wheels as they will be only as good as the wheelbuilder who built them, they could be good (maybe who knows), bad or terrible and break spokes quickly. Pot luck really. Also no one knows what the rims are like and no one will be able to tell you, they could be decent or crap in oh so many ways.

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