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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:44 pm
Posts: 12
Thanks for the input guys, I have no issue buying mastic 1 if the conti carbon glue is going to be problematic. Since I have the conti glue, I think I will do a little test strip to verify its cure time.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5773
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
Rubber ages, becomes brittle, and ultimately unusable.


When rubber becomes brittle it means it has been exposed to U.V. for too long.
I and a few others (professionals, all of them) carry some 40 tyres each. Some of them being over 30 years old and they all still look and feel as they were bought yesterday.

OTOH, give me a brand new, factory fresh, handmade tyre a la Veloflex and I'll mount it and flat it within it's first 300km or so.
None of the aged Veloflex and Vittoria tubs have ever flatted over the last 8 years of use. Not a single one.
Not that it can't happen, it just never has so far.

You know, this has nothing to with belief or disbelief, there is a sound scientific background to support the idea.

Not to say you can take your bike to the Syrian war zone once the tyres have aged but I suppose you grasp the general idea. :P

Ciao, ;)

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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:14 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:09 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1231
You're welcome to age them forever if that's your thing. I would too if I thought it made a difference. All I'm saying is I don't believe it does. Clearly you do. No biggie. There's a reason automobile tires have a shelf life after which they are not supposed to be sold (I believe it is 6 years in the US) and yes I understand that an automobile tire is not a bicycle tire.
Didn't mean to start an aging tubular debate which is pointless but if you care to present some of the "scientific evidence" you mention I would certainly look at it. But I was unable to find any when I actually looked for it, and i think I looked pretty hard. Lot of "beliefs" one way or the other but that's about it. And I certainly have never seen a manufacturer recommending to age their tires.
So unless I start flatting new tires in the first 300km like you say you are able to do, I'm just going to continue what I'm doing, thanks. But I don't, and generally enjoy trouble free service till they wear out. But I know one thing for sure. I certainly wouldn't be buying any of those 30 year old tires you have lying around. So I'm glad you're putting them to good use.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:34 am 
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Posts: 36
My experience is the same as fdegrove.
I usually buy my tires in bulk when I see a good online offer. Once I receive them I mark the purchase date on each box and store them in dark and dry place. I have about 15-20 tires in stock at any given time and when it's time to put a new tire on I use the oldest purchased ones first (couple of them are always stretched on spare rims). Since I've start doing this and using tires that are at least 12 months old I stopped having flats. Now they last until the casing fabric start showing through.

At the beginning the whole idea sounded pretty impossible to me too, but this experience made me a believer


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:56 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:34 am
Posts: 157
For those with Italian tubbies (e.g. Veloflex) wanting to know month abbreviations on the timestamp:
Code:
English   Italian    Italian Abb.n
January   gennaio    gen./genn.
February  febbraio   feb.
March     marzo      mar.
April     aprile     apr.
May       maggio     mag.
June      giugno     giu.
July      luglio     lug./lu.
August    agosto     ago./ag.
September settembre  set./sett.
October   ottobre    ott.
November  novembre   nov.
December  dicembre   dic.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:36 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Posts: 4438
Location: Canada
I am told that the aging of tires does not matter on some types of tires (i.e., those where the tread is 'vulcanized onto the casing), while it still applies to 'hand-made' tires. I don't know if that is true, but, for me, I will keep on 'aging' all tires.

'Hand-made' tires (i.e., tires for which the treads are affixed by adhesive alone) become visibly different when aged. The tread will become tinged with a 'rust'-colour, the sidewalls will become yellowed or amber (yes, Frank, just like maple leaves in autumn :D ). Try this: take a set of FMB's. Put them on a pair of stretching rims and leave them for a year (or more). Compare them to a new set. :shock: . For 'vulcanized' tires, while some say there is no benefit to aging, I opened-up a new box of Conti Comps to get on a stretching rim and, darn it if the tread was not almost brown in colour. I'm not saying that 'vulcanized' tires age inn the same fashion as 'hand-made' tires, but I will keep on doing it.

Even if you don't believe it, my point is this: you are stretching the tires on an old rim anyway. What harm could it possibly do to just leave them there?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:44 pm
Posts: 12
What is everyones prefered method of glue application? I bought acid brushes but watched a video of someone applying glue with a gloved finger tip. Looks like the finger would be faster and more even?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:54 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5773
Location: Belgium
Hi,

At the end of the day it's the result that matters, not the method.
In this case both methods can yield excellent results. I suggest trying out both and see what suits you best.

That said, IMHO at least, I find most of these videos on the internet pretty useless.
If someone asks me I usually point them to Park Tool's site which to my mind shows you a clear pictorial on how it should be done.

You should have been on the road enjoying these tubs weeks ago already anyways. :lol: :P

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:03 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:44 pm
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fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

At the end of the day it's the result that matters, not the method.
In this case both methods can yield excellent results. I suggest trying out both and see what suits you best.

That said, IMHO at least, I find most of these videos on the internet pretty useless.
If someone asks me I usually point them to Park Tool's site which to my mind shows you a clear pictorial on how it should be done.

You should have been on the road enjoying these tubs weeks ago already anyways. :lol: :P

Ciao, ;)

I know, I kept over thinking this glue selection thing.
Everything I read mentioned quick setup so I ordered 6 tubes of mastic 1, supposed to arrive Tuesday.
Meanwhile a little extra stretch time can't hurt the Conti comps :)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:36 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 450
Well f*ck. First cyclocross race of the season, first rolled tub in the first half of the lap. Experts I need your opinion. I glued them the "belgian" way, 2 layers of glue, tape, another layer of glue, glue on the tire, one more layer glue on the tire and onto the rim. I obviously didn't do something well. I didn't roll the entire tire, only a spot and that was enough to throw me off the bike. So now the question, do I remove and clean whole rim? Do I just put glue on that spot? Do I remove whole tire and reglue the whole thing? What's best? Please help :)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:14 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Posts: 4438
Location: Canada
The 'trick' is to make sure that you allow the initial layers enough time to cure properly before setting-down the next layer of glue. Ideally, you will leave the wheel for 24 hours between applications (so, between 3 and 5 days to glue a set of wheels, depending upon how many layers you use). The layers need to be thin and even, otherwise they will not cure properly, too. Are you using the 'Belgian' tape from Stu Thorne? You need to give it a pretty good tug to make sure it 'presses' into the glue.

Without knowing exactly how you installed the glue, I would tend to think that one or more of the layers did not cure properly. Accordingly, I think I would recommend starting again. Sorry. :(


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:01 pm 
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Posts: 450
Thanks Geoff. I used Velox tape and I made sure to press it really firmly. And actually I did 6 days to finish the wheels. By starting again do you mean to complete strip glue and tape and reapply from the beginning? The part that rolled off looked to be very dry, maybe I didn't put enough glue? Well how would you know :)
How do you remove the tape anyway? I haven't done it before.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:27 pm 
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Location: Canada
Ahh. I haven't used the Jantex/Velox tape before, but I had been asked to closely examine a wheel that had been rolled using that tape before. In addition to examining the wheel, I got a chance to compare the Jantex tape to my (Stu's) tape, too.

I know that lots of people who use it say that Jantex it is the same as the stuff that Stu Thorne sells. If it is, I can tell you it sure doesn't like it is. Stu's tape is quite a bit thinner and the weave is much 'looser'. You'll see that when you put-on Stu's tape, it 'squishes' into the glue previously laid-down. The rolled Jantex wheel I saw did not look like that (to be fair, I didn't glue that wheel, so I cannot vouch for the methodology, but the rider described what would appear to be a 'safe' method. She said that she really yarded on the tape, too, but that may be a matter of opinion).

Personally, I would re-glue the wheel with the tape Stu Thorne sells. In Belgium, they probably know exactly who the manufacturer is and have been using that for years (Frank?) In Canada, for $30 it is easier for me to get Stu's tape, which I know will work perfectly (you also get enough tape to glue-up wheels for a few seasons for that).

To remove the tape, I find the best way is to use a blunt screwdriver, and old kitchen knife, a household solvent on a terrycloth rag and a bunch of effort. There are no shortcuts, unfortunately. Assuming it is a carbon rim, be gentle...


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:33 pm 
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Thanks again Geoff :)

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Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:33 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:51 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5773
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Velox/Jantex tape is some sort of textile strip dipped in Tubasti rim cement so both sides are adhesive.
Tubasti rim cement isn't the greatest of cements to begin with and if you'd combine that with layers of a different brand of cement then it would even become worse than it is already.

Who ever wrote the copy for this add either never saw Tufo tape from up close or Jantex or both. Either way the similarity ends with the word "tape" :

http://www.bikeman.com/bicycle-product-reviews/new-product-introductions/2396-velox-jantex-belgian-style-tubular-gluing-tape

Not sure why the tape is used, the only plausible reason I can come up with is that it essentially adds another "substrate for the bottom (rim side) and top (base tape side) to "cling to. It probably also makes it easier to remove the tubular afterwards as the cement is likely to separate at the tape instead of at the rim or base tape.

One could argue that a stronger cement could be used but that would very likely compromise the bond between the base tape and the tyre proper.

Lennard Zinn:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/11/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-with-lennard-zinn-belgian-tape-wide-rims-and-carbon-braking-surfaces_198891

Description of gluing method:

Quote:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/10/news/cyclocross/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-getting-those-cross-tires-on-right_101235



BTW. only scrape the base tape if you know for a fact that it has been coated. Not sure what's best for CX but for road I'd recommend not touching it even if it does come with a latex coat. Currently that would be the likes of FMB, maybe some Dugast and older Veloflex Record and SC.
Others like Vittoria use a different kind of coating which contains fungicides and what looks and feels like a thin coat of Aquasure or similar. Leave it, it won't do any harm quite the opposite.

That being said, I do not know of any Belgian CX rider that actually uses this method but if there should be one on this forum. I'd sure like to know more as to how all this came about. :mrgreen:

Until the jury is out on this one, we still have lots of truly Belgian chocolates for you all. Not to mention all sorts of wicked brews too...... :lol:

Ciao, ;)

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