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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:26 pm 
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Location: it's raining, it must be uk
six steps to gluing tubs...

1. use paragraphs
2. ignore what conti say
3. use vittoria mastik one glue
4. 3 thin coats on rim, 1 on basetape, covering both edge to edge
5. final coat on rim if you are a frankist, basetape if you are a geoffist
6. i.e. do what it says in the gluing tub thread


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Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:26 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:02 pm 
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LouisN wrote:
Tell us what are the best ideas you held from the gluing thread ?

It's unlikely you read all those pages and still come up with Conti's advice... :noidea:

Louis :)

Did you not read my initial post :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:08 pm 
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sungod wrote:
six steps to gluing tubs...

1. use paragraphs
2. ignore what conti say
3. use vittoria mastik one glue
4. 3 thin coats on rim, 1 on basetape, covering both edge to edge
5. final coat on rim if you are a frankist, basetape if you are a geoffist
6. i.e. do what it says in the gluing tub thread

Hey sungod, yes that novel was a little compressed :oops:
that is pretty much what I was considering doing other than glue selection which I bought with the tires to make things simple.
Having never glued a tubular, I am merely wondering why contis suggestions differ from everything I have read and video I have watched from both manufactures and end users.
Thanks for the reply


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:36 pm 
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Conti also says to leave a spot unglued for ease of removal. There is another reason to disregard their instructions.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:10 pm 
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Note that you are reading the directions for Conti's carbon-specific glue, which are different than the instructions for Conti's "regular" glue, and specifically regarding putting the last coat on the tire (seam) for carbon-specific glue, as opposed to on the rim for regular glue. Perhaps you should use Mastc One and then follow the advice provided here.

With regard to getting glue on the rim braking surface, you can apply electrical tape over the braking surface by bending the tape as you follow the curvature around the rim, and then easily peel off the electrical tape with no muss or fuss after the tire has been glued.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:15 pm 
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743power wrote:
Conti also says to leave a spot unglued for ease of removal. There is another reason to disregard their instructions.

Good point, so that's 3 votes for using the included conti instructions for toilet paper :)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:21 pm 
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HammerTime2 wrote:
Note that you are reading the directions for Conti's carbon-specific glue, which are different than the instructions for Conti's "regular" glue, and specifically regarding putting the last coat on the tire (seam) for carbon-specific glue, as opposed to on the rim for regular glue. Perhaps you should use Mastc One and then follow the advice provided here.

With regard to getting glue on the rim braking surface, you can apply electrical tape over the braking surface by bending the tape as you follow the curvature around the rim, and then easily peel off the electrical tape with no muss or fuss after the tire has been glued.

I have 3 tubes of the conti carbon glue so would prefer to use them, having said that shouldn't it respond to the method of 1 coat on the tire and 3 on the rim the last being just prior to mounting?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:59 pm 
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Conti carbon-specific glue has different instructions than most glue, so deviating too much from their instructions might put you into uncharted territory, with folks here not having much experience. I don't know why the instructions for carbon-specific glue are different, and I offer no opinions based on "common sense", since I'm not sure it would be correct. Per Continental, the carbon-specific glue is supposed to handle high rim temperatures (as might occur with carbon rims) better than regular glue, but most people seem to think Mastic One, if applied correctly, works well enough even in hot weather with a fair amount of braking.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:50 am 
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Food for thought HT, conti even goes so far as to have a picture of a second coat on the rim with a slash thru the pic.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:42 am 
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Hi,

One major disadvantage of Conti cement is that it cures quite a bit faster than Mastik One so you'd have to take that into account. Especially so when you're used to using Mastik One.
This means you'd better mount your tyre straight onto the rim first time 'round since this Conti cement is pretty sticky once it touches the opposite layer on a rim and vice versa. Good luck when using an already hard to stretch Conti tub...

Regarding Conti's carbon specific cement: the reason, other than the one mentioned above, most people prefer Mastik One is that a) the carbon specific cement is notably more expensive on a volume to volume comparison and b) there does not seem to be any reason to justify its existence since Mastik One works fine and has done so regardless of rim material.

Quite a lot of tubular riders seem to use rim or both the carbon and alloy persuasion so having one single type of cement covering both sounds like a good idea.

One last thing, not to bash Conti cement, is that I still have to hear any genuinely positive feedback on this CF specific rim cement. If I do get feed back it's invariably rather negative. :noidea:

Here's one plausible explanation as to why the instructions differ:

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/components/tubular-adhesive/product/review-continental-carbon-rim-cement-44556

Quote:
The one issue with the new glue, according to Continental, is that it can't be applied using a traditional layering technique. The adhesive goes on thicker, and Continental say it will not dry if too much is applied to either the rim or tire.


The instructions:

http://www.conti-online.com/www/download/bicycle_de_en/general/downloads/download/carbonrimcement_en.pdf

Novice warning: from figure #10 things are a tad misleading. It looks as if the inner side of the rim receives a coat of cement whereas in reality it is meant to show the operator applying a coat of cement to the base tape. And no, the tube of cement does not come with a brush, that only comes with a tin of Conti's cement.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:59 am 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
This is my first concern, everyone else advises edge to edge coverage of the spoke bed where as the conti video shows their wrench glueing only down the center of the spoke bed? he also does the same on the tubular covering only the middle or seam of the tubular.


A good glue job requires the spoke bed and base tape to be properly coated with cement edge to edge. It is on the edges of the spoke bed and base tape that forces are working hardest trying to dislodge the tyre from the rim.

Some spoke beds are even grooved at the center to ease seating of certain tubulars that have a protrusion where the tubular is sewn together. However, tubulars that do not come with such pronounced protrusion tend not to stick to the rim bed in the center.
This still should have no impact on safety provided the rest of the tubular is properly glued.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:40 am 
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Location: Canada
Can you glue-up a tire in the fashion being discussed? Probably, but why on earth would you do it? To save some time? Save a bit of glue? Honestly, it isn't worth it. Your skull is worth enough to spend a bit more care to do a really good job.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:25 pm 
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Posts: 12
I read a bunch of material on the conti carbon glue yesterday after my post, It is difficult at best to gage a product from internet reviews.
There were mixed reviews, with the negative reviews referring to the fast setup time of this glue, can anyone give me personal feedback on the setup time of this glue vs. Mastic 1?
Being my first glue job, it is gonna take me a little more time to get things straight, time I may or may not have?
I extracted the following from the bike radar post, the glue is mentioned to be thicker but no real mention of curing time.
“It’s probably not as easy to put on,” Howat said when asked for summary of the Continental carbon glue. “It’s a thicker carrier and solvent, so I found that it was more difficult to get a uniform coat. But obviously it’s performing better… so I'd use it, if it were available to me.”
Thanks for any help :)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:22 pm 
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@evosolution: I think you're at a stage where you've read enough and searched the various opinions that it's time you just dive in and start seeing how it goes. If you choose the Conti Carbon glue I would follow their instructions. I've never used it but had the same questions you are asking right now at first. If you choose Vitorria Mastik or the regular Conti glue then you have a whole bunch of different opinions floating around and now you just have to pick and choose and ultimately form your own opinion. That's what I did. Only then will you learn how the glue works while spreading and you'll get used to it and wonder what all the fuss was about. You'll learn just how big, or small, a section of rim you can quickly work with at time before moving to the next small section. Youl'll learn how to work smoothly and quickly to the point of rarely getting glue on the brake tracks yet getting a completelly uniform and smooth application all the way up the edges, and the edges of the rim bed are where you really want the best bond because as has been mentioned, that's where the most forces are acting on it. I use acid brushes to apply the glue, one brush for once around the rim, then start with a new brush. They're cheap and disposable, throw them away as soon as they're getting gunked up and making life more difficult than it needs to be. Also, I find using the small tubes much much easier than from the larger can. You'll learn just how much to squeeze out per section so that it's spread nice and evenly and perfectly timed for the next section. It's all about doing it a few times. You'll understand much more about the process once you do.

I have come to the conclusion that following Vittorias instructions works best for me, and even though I've experimented with more layers, or thicker layers, I find that the bond was just as strong or stronger with two layers on the rim and one layer on the base tape. In fact, I would argue that adding layer upon layer just means you're building up a bed of glue which is really just waiting to melt underneath and possibly making it even easier for a tire to roll off if conditions permit. This is just my own thought however, as I have never rolled a tire or had one otherwise separate from the rim.

Then comes removal. That's really where the "fun" of tubular tires comes in. It took me 15 minutes just to pry the last tire off glued according to Vittorias instructions. And I like to completely strip old glue from the rim before I put a new tire on, unless it's a really new tire and stuff is really fresh. But if a tire has run it's natural course of wear, I like to start fresh. In the old days, all kinds of scraping noises and swearing and drunken battering could be heard from cellars as this process took place, but now with chemical strippers etc, it's still time consuming but relatively painless. In Europe there is Schwalbe's Tubular Glue remover available. Here in North America is it unavailable, but I've come across a product which I suspect is very similar. It is called Klean-Strip Adhesive Remover. I find that working in small sections with this stuff (and a whole bunch of acid brushes) will get me to rim bed that is indistinguishable from a brand new wheel. This works much better than Goof-Off for getting the majority of the stuff off then I'll use Goof-Off for a few remaining bits, but probably not necessary. I only use Acetone for a wipe down of new rims and a quick wipe down of the rim upon glue removal.

For what it's worth, here are the maufacturers instructions for the use of Vittoria Mastik One:
Image

Image


And here's the mess after removing a tire and all related glue, leaving a perfectly clean rim ready for a new tire...
Image

Oh, and one last thing I'll add regarding tubulars is that I am in the camp that believes aging tubulars is a complete myth, and that even if it were true years ago (and I'm not saying it was even then), I have found nothing to make me believe it is true today. In fact, the only tire that I've flatted in a normal way (small puncture that was easily fixed with sealant) was on a tire that had been aged the longest before mounting of any tire I've used. And I'm not implying anything there because because I don't believe aging does anything except allow a perfectly good new tire to become old; the flat was caused by running over something, plain and simple, and it was small at that. Rubber ages, becomes brittle, and ultimately unusable. I have an unridden mounted Vredestein tire that has been in my nice cool dark garage for years, and it is cracked beyond hope. Unusable. And I once went touring in New Zealand with my touring bike that hadn't been used for about 3 years with nice Continental Top Touring tires on it. Lots of tread but I had to replace them after the trip started due to them crumbling and cracking. So, if you want to keep a bunch of tires sitting around somehow believing they will be much better when you finally mount them, go ahead if it makes you feel better. But I'd rather just get the latest and greatest tire when I need them. Sure glad I don't have a bunch of Veloflex 22mm tires lying around, they're great tires but I prefer the 23's and am now experimenting with the 25's, and am liking them so far as well, and may become my size of choice in the future.

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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:22 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:46 pm 
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+1. The first part. Not the tubular prefference part :wink: ...




3 tubes of glue down the bin is nothing compared to the hassle you'll go through just to justify your purchase.
Not that Conti glue won't work...it's just 1 000 000 times obvious people prefer Mastik One...

Louis :)


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