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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:04 am 
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in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 3229
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
surely everyone chases the slack in the tyre around the rim.

it is perfectly possible to make a reliable 410g rim. Pacenti failed but ryde have maanged with the pulse sprint. Stans have the 340 and while it is a noodle it does not seem to fail. I suppose because it is a noodle it self selects to light riders. The new OP seems similar to the Kinlin XR22T which is 440-450g (no eyelets either and it dies not seem to crack) so with mavic milling technique 20g can be knocked off and bingo you have a light weight rim.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:02 am 
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Posts: 154
C36 wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
https://novemberbicycles.com/blogs/blog ... en-pro-ust

409-415g for medium-wide alloy rims with brake-tracks is somewhat ridiculous. Eyelets on a UST rim is also a bit ridiculous.


Based on what?
- weight: you are comparing traditional rims with constant wall thickness with variable wall thickness. The sidewall thickness is a mix of material for the brake track wear and support tire force (tire pressure over the active area).
- for months I see people complaining about the eyelets and nobody has yet provided a reasonable answer... does it looks "old" ? I don't care if we feel they are needed... Dt tried without and had to put some back... I would have a 410 g rim with them than an 450 without... I could by some corrosion we have seen on some eyelets but except this....


Just to be clear, our review doesn't say the rim is too light or that eyelets are inherently bad. Our basic take is that both have explanations, but time will tell. We've been favorably impressed so far.

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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:02 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:36 am 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
dave you can't write in a neutral way just stating observations as some will always read what they want into the piece. This is unfortunate and infects every sphere of life.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:10 pm 
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bm0p700f wrote:
surely everyone chases the slack in the tyre around the rim.

it is perfectly possible to make a reliable 410g rim. Pacenti failed but ryde have maanged with the pulse sprint. Stans have the 340 and while it is a noodle it does not seem to fail. I suppose because it is a noodle it self selects to light riders. The new OP seems similar to the Kinlin XR22T which is 440-450g (no eyelets either and it dies not seem to crack) so with mavic milling technique 20g can be knocked off and bingo you have a light weight rim.


The Stan’s 340 is a noodle and also relatively narrow. Originally it weighed even less, hence the ‘340’ in the name. The 22 in the XR22T refers to the rim depth, I believe...fairly shallow. Anyway 30g can make all the difference, though I will concede that varying the Wall thickness a la Shimano’s Ultegra wheels could allow them to make wide 410g rim that won’t crack.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Location: New York City
I've been running the new OPs for a couple of months on my road bike (32 spoke) with 25mm Conti GP ii tires and tubes. I can vouch for the difficulty mounting these and I usually have to use 2 tire levers at once and use a lot of force and cursing. They also seem to need 100+ psi to seat the bead so when fixing flats on the road (and I've had quite a few) my mini pump has trouble over 70psi so it's lots of re-inflating, pushing beads back and forth and more cursing. That said, I realize Mavic do not recommend 25mm tires so I can't complain but it begs the question of why design a rim that excludes what is probably the most common tire width.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Wider tyres are not ever to mount either.

Tom hates you - I did note the stans rim is a noodle. Yes the 22 in the kinlin rim refers to the depth but the kinlin rim seems to be radially stiffer than the mavic as i can true the mavic radially, i cant to the same extent with the kinlin to the point that I don't even bother. If I find a kinlin that is not round I simply un build and pick a new rim. So that appears to be the down side of the 3d milling process it reduces radial stiffness. That is a observation though not a measurement.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:04 am 
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Location: Wet coast, Canada
Just skip the overrated Mavic product and use HED Belgium +. I have a pair set up with tubeless rim tape but run regular clinchers on them. I have never had to use a lever, mounting Conti GP4000ii in 700x23 and 700x25, as well as Vittoria Open CX in 700x23.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:19 am 
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The he'd rim is over twice the price. Fine if you have that kind of cash. Not many do though and I would not use heads over winter as braking is too expensive. I have had tubeless tyre seating issues with hed tubeless rims. They are not perfect either.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:16 am 
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The price difference is less in the US. MSRPs of $150 vs $100. Still a somewhat significant difference, though less in the context of building out an entire wheel. There remain plenty of other options from Velocity, H+Son, Kinlin, etc. I mean when it really comes down to it, it's hard to beat Ultegra wheels at $280 total, especially for running tubeless.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:21 am 
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TobinHatesYou wrote:
. I mean when it really comes down to it, it's hard to beat Ultegra wheels at $280 total, especially for running tubeless.


My ultegra wheels were complete crap as a tubeless set up. Nearly put me off the concept.

Reliant on shimano valves without removable cores due to the offset rim design, so you couldn't dump air in fast enough.

Whilst trying to inflate, it would leak through the extrusion holes around the rim.

Narrow rim design.


Thanfully they died, and i bought some Bonty paradigm comps which are in a different class :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:27 am 
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TobinHatesYou wrote:
The price difference is less in the US. MSRPs of $150 vs $100. Still a somewhat significant difference, though less in the context of building out an entire wheel. There remain plenty of other options from Velocity, H+Son, Kinlin, etc. I mean when it really comes down to it, it's hard to beat Ultegra wheels at $280 total, especially for running tubeless.



With that difference in price, I would buy HED + any day. Here in the UK it's more like 2.5 times the price

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Bigger Gear wrote:
Just skip the overrated Mavic product and use HED Belgium +. .

Statement supported by? Just trying to understand how such a generic comment brings a value or if it is somehow linked with the actual post...

Bigger Gear wrote:
I have a pair set up with tubeless rim tape but run regular clinchers on them. I have never had to use a lever, mounting Conti GP4000ii in 700x23 and 700x25, as well as Vittoria Open CX in 700x23.

Again, how one individual is representative of anything? if you document yourself on challenges tubeless face you will see that pretty much nobody follows the norm.
Image then you can have tires very hard to mount or easy ones... but under extreme condition would be unsafe. Image
Same goes for the rims, for more details....
https://engineerstalk.mavic.com/en/road ... safe-fast/






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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:51 am 
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Posts: 106
Seems that a lot of people have misread my original post. At no point was a tyre lever used to fit the tyre to the rim. The damage occurred on REMOVAL of the tyre when inserting the second tyre lever and levering it over the rim, the point at which maximum stress would have been applied to the rim. It's at that point it just folded over like tin foil. And the replacement rim was totally different in respect of the difficulty (or not as it was) in fitting the tyre and removing it. It was similar to the front. But the state that Mavic returned the wheel with the replacement rim was appalling. My builder has sent me before and after spoke tension charts for the wheel builders amongst you. This ultimately was the reason for posting this in the first place that Mavic deem it acceptable to send such rubbish back. I'll ignore the derogatory comments that forums tend to attract but also there's plenty of 'smart' people here that seem to be able to say what I should or should not have done in hindsight. Yet no one I know, including wheel builders, has ever seen this before in the way that it happened....

Here are the spoke tensions. What I received back from Mavic:

Image

and how it now looks and how it should have come back from Mavic

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:16 am 
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Average tension still a bit low in my opinion...

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:20 am 
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C36 wrote:
Bigger Gear wrote:
Just skip the overrated Mavic product and use HED Belgium +. .

Statement supported by? Just trying to understand how such a generic comment brings a value or if it is somehow linked with the actual post...



The HED + is an excellent rim... robust, will take any tension, can be used tubed or tubeless indifferently, can be used at any tyre pressure and can accomodate a wide range of tyres (I have used it from 25-40 mm).

The Open PRO UST seem to have a few more issues

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Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:20 am 


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