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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:23 am 
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Hello, I've just ordered a cool Titanium Pickenflick (cross) frame from PlanetX which will be used for commuting & vacations (loaded touring).
I will build it up using some SRAM red/force (2 x 10 sp) stuff that I have laying around and will start with mechanical disc brakes (BB7).

I am looking for strong wheelset, but as light as possible. Around 1.5 .. 1.8kg would be nice. I hope you'll have some advice for me!
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I am 1m92 and 83 kg (6ft3 / 190 lbs).
When I am touring I go to the alps or pyrenees and I have only ~ 8...9 kg of luggage with me. I ride pass roads, so tarmac roads as well as on gravel tracks / dirt roads.
(e.g. I plan to do the Torino Nice Rally next year). I will use tires between 28 - 42 mm.

My ideas & my questions:

SPOKES:
32 spokes seems solid
- does less also work for my weight and application?
- I do not know which brand spokes to choose.
- Should I take butted spokes ?
- I understand brass nipples are better for durability but how does this work out in practice? (I read somewhere at 32sp/wheel weight difference can be 50g per wheel)

RIMS: Dt swiss 460 or 411 or 511 (for Disc brakes) or ......
- apperently D511 is most solid but also heaviest.....
- will the 411 be strong enough?
(tubeless is not my goal)

HUBS: Novatec Hubs 711/712 or DT 350
- Are DT 350 much better than novatec? I cannot find many reviews on Novatec hubs, just that users say they are not as well sealed as the DT350, or Hope

I am looking forward to your advice and experiences! Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:36 am 
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If you are touring with 9kg of luggage, I would forget about 1.5 kg wheelset, you will be looking at something around 1.8 to 1.9 kg.

You need 32 spokes and 3 cross, ideally something like Sapim Force, or Sapim Race as an alternative at the rear. The front can be lighter... Sapim D-Light for instance. The rim should be wide enough to accomodate bigger tyres, so a minimum internal width of 17 mm.
Hubs should be robust, you don't want to deal with bent axles, flimsy bearings and freehubs made of cheese. Shimano if you are on a budget or Hope PRO 4 if you have some cash.

With all the load you are carrying, there is zero point in saving the gram on the wheels

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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:36 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm
Posts: 354
Hubs:
I suggest to use plastic spoke protector on rear wheel on tour
Shimano hubs always have enough space for spoke protector
On other brand hubs sometimes it wont fit, but if you use 10sp cassette+spacer on any 11sp hub it will fit

Spokes:
front 28h 2x sapim cx-ray/laser, rear 32h 3x sapim cx-ray/race

DT Rims:
511 is too deep/heavy, 411 is ok, but both are narrow and designed around rim brake track
RR421 with 20mm inner 410g disc designed asymmetric profile is more interesting option for rear,
on front you can use RR421 (same) or symmetrical lighter rim XR331 (20mm 340g).
20mm rims should be ok for 28c tires, but they may became 30c after installing

Nipples:
Some DT rims comes with nipples - use them.
In other cases it's better to use brass nipples
(steel spokes + alu rim + brass nipples = less corrossion)

Brakes can be upgraded to TRP Spyres.

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Last edited by ooo on Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Posts: 228
Location: Wilmington, DE
Have a look at Bitex hubs. They have some pretty light options for a lot less money than some of the more well known brands, and it seems at least a few other 'wheel companies' rebrand Bitex hubs.

For spokes, I'd go Sapim Laser or CX-Ray all around, possibly with the exception of the rear drive side. I built my long time 1450 gram commuter wheels using DT Competition spokes on the DS and Revolution everywhere else with aluminum nipples and they never gave me any spoke problems. I recommend and use Sapim spokes now becsuse they are just as good and much less expensive.

For rims, don't overthink it. Find something the right width and height and go with it. Maybe consider offset drilled rims (front and rear as you are using discs) for better tension balance.

Your SRAM levers won't like TRP Spyres so stick with the BB7 Road version. If you want an upgrade, consider the TRP HY/RDs with my short pull conversion arms (yes, a shameless plug ;)).


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:35 pm
Posts: 110
I like the DT 460 rims rather a lot... wide enough for a big range of tyres... tubeless but not too tight, infact they work equally well with inner tubes. Price is very good too, coming at roughly half of most "tubeless ready" rims.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:31 am
Posts: 665
J00P wrote:
Hello, I've just ordered a cool Titanium Pickenflick (cross) frame from PlanetX which will be used for commuting & vacations (loaded touring).

I am looking for strong wheelset, but as light as possible. Around 1.5 .. 1.8kg would be nice. I hope you'll have some advice for me!

I am 1m92 and 83 kg (6ft3 / 190 lbs).

When I am touring I go to the alps or pyrenees and I have only ~ 8...9 kg of luggage with me.

32 spokes seems solid
- does less also work for my weight and application?
- I do not know which brand spokes to choose.
- Should I take butted spokes ?
- I understand brass nipples are better for durability but how does this work out in practice? (I read somewhere at 32sp/wheel weight difference can be 50g per wheel)


How exactly are you going to go loaded touring on that bicycle? If by "loaded" you mean the new ultralight method with a very large saddlebag and a front handlebar bag and a frame bag, then maybe OK on that bike. (See Apidura, Ortleib, Revelate Designs for bag examples) Or are you going to bolt a rack onto that frame with no braze ons for racks? You mentioned taking ONLY 18-20 pounds of luggage. On many loaded tours with a full on loaded touring bike and front and rear racks and four panniers, I barely get that much weight of gear. And at 190 pounds you are not lightweight. Not heavy, but not light.

32 spokes are good. DT or Sapim make good spokes. 14/15 double butted spokes are good on the drive side rear. Maybe go lighter 15/16 on front and non drive side if you feel adventurous or lucky or really, really want to save a few grams. Aluminum nipples are much lighter than brass and will last at least a few years or more without much trouble. So again for lightness, use aluminum nipples over brass. But brass are better for long term reliability and don't add that much extra weight. You are talking a weight difference of at least 2 grams per nipple between aluminum and brass. 50 PLUS grams per wheel with a 32 spoke wheel. Does that make any difference???


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:44 am 
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Thanks for the answers so far! Yes, I will go "bikepacking", with apidura saddle and frame bags.
(Maybe if this doesn't work out I 'll try to fix a tubus fly rack to the bike, somehow).

The ideas about the number and pattern of the spokes seem consistent with eachother. Also the nipples will be brass, as I was expecting ( you are less fanatic on weight than I, and I thought I was a very moderate weenie :) )

On the rims I am not sure yet. I Did some reading and it seems the asymmetric dt411 would result in a better wheel than the symmetric 460s? I will also lookup the rr421 rims suggested by ooo

Yes, i ve also heard the shimano hubs are good, but I think they are quite heavy and need more care than the wheels with industrial bearings?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:11 am 
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Btw. I read somewhere the max weight for the dt 411 is 90kg, which is close to my own 83kg and the 8kg of luggage, if i would do loaded touring. That s why i also opted for the dt511.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:08 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:35 pm
Posts: 110
J00P wrote:
Thanks for the answers so far! Yes, I will go "bikepacking", with apidura saddle and frame bags.
(Maybe if this doesn't work out I 'll try to fix a tubus fly rack to the bike, somehow).

The ideas about the number and pattern of the spokes seem consistent with eachother. Also the nipples will be brass, as I was expecting ( you are less fanatic on weight than I, and I thought I was a very moderate weenie :) )

On the rims I am not sure yet. I Did some reading and it seems the asymmetric dt411 would result in a better wheel than the symmetric 460s? I will also lookup the rr421 rims suggested by ooo

Yes, i ve also heard the shimano hubs are good, but I think they are quite heavy and need more care than the wheels with industrial bearings?


Asymmetric rims tend to give better tension on the non drive side. That said, we used to build wheels before asymmetric rims were available and without any issue, if the wheel was built properly. The DT 460 allows you to tension it well without it cracking, the DT 411 seems a bit light, which in turn means lower tension should be applied, which means that overall you might end up with the same NDS tension as a wheel built with the symmetric DT 460.
I am always a bit skeptical of light rims... a few years ago the Pacenti SL23 was all the rage and I was one of those saying it was too light for its size... then cracks became frequent both in the MACH 1 and in the revised (and lighter!) MACH 2. The same people that raved about it at the time are now pointing the finger.
In my view the low tension on the NDS problem doesn't exist and if you are touring you should choose a strong rim. If it is asymmetric, even better, if it isn't, it's not a deal breaker.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:56 am 
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Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Posts: 3314
J00P wrote:
Btw. I read somewhere the max weight for the dt 411 is 90kg, which is close to my own 83kg and the 8kg of luggage, if i would do loaded touring. That s why i also opted for the dt511.
TBH, if the luggage weight is on the frame those weight limits should be looked at carefully. The extra weight on the frame certainly "helps" with smashing through potholes....... body weight is a lot easier to move around!


Last edited by mattr on Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:01 am 
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Posts: 3314
J00P wrote:
Yes, i ve also heard the shimano hubs are good, but I think they are quite heavy and need more care than the wheels with industrial bearings?
More care? Not really. For training/winter/touring/cross wheels, I crack them open when new, fill them with grease then ride them, pretty much hassle free except for a quick peek once a year to make sure the grease is still clean.

Shimanos fill is a little stingy as they try to optimise drag/lubrication/corrosion protection, i'm more interested in durability and corrosion protection so the get filled right up!

They'll usually be good for several tens of thousands of km until they even need new bearings.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:07 am 
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Location: Estonia
Forget the Novatec hubs. These are not sealed at all. I have these on 3 wheelsets.
DT 350 front is almost same price as Novatec and rear is a bit less than twice the price, but def worth it.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:58 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Posts: 228
Location: Wilmington, DE
whosatthewheel wrote:
Asymmetric rims tend to give better tension on the non drive side. That said, we used to build wheels before asymmetric rims were available and without any issue, if the wheel was built properly.


5/6/7 speed wheel dish was a lot less extreme than 11 speed. We're also talking a fairly lightweight wheel build for a not-so-lightweight guy who plans to add baggage weight to the bike. If it was me, I'd want to most even tension I could get even if it restricted me to only a few rim options.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:51 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Kinlin XR31RTS or Velocity Ailerons are good choices. I have the velocity ailerons 24 spoke with CX-ray @ 1.5kg 6 kg of lugages minimum every day often there is more in them (nut not today) and I am 88kg dressed presently (too high). there are over 10000 miles on these wheels so light a relaible is possible but it depends on the rider. The deeper the rim the better for lower spoke counts.

whosathewheel is right. asymmetric is nice to have but not essential. If a wheel is built properly it is not essential. then again asymmetric rims to do not make up for variable tensions.

There is nothing wrong with the R460 but the Kinlin XR22RTS is asymmetric so you might as well use that. The RR511 is again similar to the XR31RTS but not asymmetric. The velocity is useful for its internal width and tyre fitting is quite easy. The new Mavic Open Pro UST disc rims is due very shortly. that will be a good choice too.

That velocity wheelset has novatec D711/D712 hubs in them and over 10,000 miles of all year round u.k weather riding. never touched hubs and they are buttery smooth so rainerhq might have different experience but it does depend on if the hubs are pressure washed and degreasers are used on the chain (I dont use either so I find fewer problems then some). Also these hubs dont have the standard bearings (cant remember what is in them now). The NBK bearings can wear out quickly.

Shimano hubs are excellent. DT Swiss 350 are good too and so are miche. I use all of them.

USe triple butted spokes if you can and I would not worry about wheel weight to much. 28 spokes minimum really, 32 does not hurt. Deeper rims can use fewer spokes but with that much luggage you can argue why not have more spokes.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:51 pm 
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Posts: 77
I'll second the Kinlin XR31 rims recommendation; they're cheap (49 euros in The Netherlands) and strong. Look good too. Asymmetric means a little less chance of broken spokes on the NDS with no downsides.

I have one set for rim brakes with 32mm GP 4Season tyres, 28 Sapim D-Light spokes at the front and 28 D-Light(NDS)/Race(DS) at the rear. Used this for audax and touring with 11kg of luggage (two small panniers and a Ortlieb handlebar bag) in the Alps. Another set is for disc with 24 Sapim Force (tripple butted) spokes and 35mm Compass tyres; using this for audax, including one that did have about 80km of gravel. Both sets are still as solid and true as when I made them (but then, I'm only 60kg, I don't give wheels a hard time ;-))

One Powertap rear hub, the others are all DT Swiss 350. So far, 10 000km each in all kinds of weather, they're still smooth.


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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:51 pm 


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