Tubeless trouble

[NovemberDave]

I say this as a fairly well established advocate of tubeless cross as a useful solution for a lot of people. If you want to get much below 25psi, use tubulars. With a Stan's Grail and a good fitting tire, you simply won't burp no matter the pressure, but the lower functional limit of the tire comes into play. The sidewalls aren't supple enough to work well below the low 20s. Its a bit hard to describe in words, but the sidewall/casing stiffness prevents the tire from really flattening out as a good tubular would, and instead leaves you with a pretty significant feeling of squirm. As you go from edge to edge, the tire kind of "flops" from side to side, rather than smoothly rolling through the casing as it does with a good supple tubular.

The low pressure limit of a good tubeless cross setup is not burping, it is the lack of suppleness in the tire creating an inability to take full advantage of the system's structural ability to be run at very low pressure.

Otherwise, what Svetty just said - your tubeless road tire cost you nothing and instead saved you whatever result you were able to salvage.

[Abl3rider]

Well that's looking on the bright side, lol. I recently went over a year, riding at least 100 miles a week on my old road bike running Conti gator skins and butyl tubes without a flat. Over a year w/o a single flat.

Then I got this lovely super-light modern rig, and 4th ride...first race I flat. And yes, the flat cost me a podium finish. Not saying I wouldn't have flatted with clinchers, but my feeling is I may be better off on different tubeless tires.?. I will look into my options for good puncture resistant road TL tires. Any suggestions?


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[Abl3rider]

November Dave great info on the cross side! Thanks


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[mattr]

I've found some of the better open tubular type tyres (if you can get them inflated tubelessly AND they are a tight fit) are pretty much there in terms of tubular feel. I've run sub 20psi (not on grails either) and had no problems. A hell of a lot better than normal tyres and for the convenience over tubular, it's a (small) sacrifice I'm willing to make!

If i still had a race season of 20+ races, I'd have dedicated wheels and tubulars. For the 6-8 races i do have, and using wheels that go back onto other bikes. Tubeless with good tyres is actually very good.

[mattr]

Well that's looking on the bright side, lol. I recently went over a year, riding at least 100 miles a week on my old road bike running Conti gator skins and butyl tubes without a flat.

I'd rather have a couple of flats than ride all year on gatorskins!

[Abl3rider]

Haha I didn't think they were that bad but haven't tried tubular. They finally wore out so I put on a pair of 25 mm GP4000s II. I guess I can tell a difference now... on my Colnago Super. They seem stickier. But the Giant tires on my TCR... not sure how good they are. They feel nice, I guess.

I don't know how you road guys feel such big difference between road tires? It's not like MTB or cross where traction and shock absorption are so critical. I guess I've always overinflated my road tires thinking it is faster so I miss out on any "suppleness"


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[TheKaiser]

I've found some of the better open tubular type tyres (if you can get them inflated tubelessly AND they are a tight fit) are pretty much there in terms of tubular feel. I've run sub 20psi (not on grails either) and had no problems. A hell of a lot better than normal tyres and for the convenience over tubular, it's a (small) sacrifice I'm willing to make!

If i still had a race season of 20+ races, I'd have dedicated wheels and tubulars. For the 6-8 races i do have, and using wheels that go back onto other bikes. Tubeless with good tyres is actually very good.

This is exclusively in a low pressure cross application, no? Running non-tubeless clinchers tubeless at any sort of road/fast gravel pressure is a big no-no, and I would say especially so with an open tubular as from my experience they have the thinnest most elastic beads of any clinchers, particularly when compared to a top end vulcanized tire like a GP4k. BTW, I believe that Vittoria's newest gen top end tubeless tires do use an open tubular casing but with a tubeless ready road bead. Not sure how far across the line they have spread that tech though, but it seems like it would be a great fit for cross.

[mattr]

Hell yeah. Absolutely no way I'd bodge road tubeless.
It was in reference to Novemberdaves comments on tubeless cx not being as good as tubular.

Anything over ~40psi I'll do properly.

[Geoff]

I have been running a couple of different tubeless sets for a couple of seasons as part of a long-term test. I have been running two 'factory' wheelsets: Dura-Ace and Shamals. I have been running various combinations of tires. Overall, I have been pretty impressed with the technology. The rim design and manufacturing for both wheelsets is first-rate. I cannot compare to the Heds, as I have only ever used the Stinger Heds (which are first-rate).

I would think about racing them for road (maybe, but I wouldn't be too happy about it). I think the course conditions would have to require it (like racing in AZ without support, or something). For 'cross, I don't think I could foresee a situation where I would want to use tubeless. In my opinion, all you are doing is trading pinch-flats for burping, versus clinchers.

As you know, racing 'cross is really hard work. It just seems a shame to expend all that energy and deliberately choose an inferior tire technology for that application. Nowhere in the racing world is the advantage of tubulars over all other technologies more apparent than in 'cross (yes, track included). Why do it?

[mattr]

Why do it?

Convenience, cost.

[Abl3rider]

Versatility. I need to be able to swap road and cross tires on my cross bike.

Just last season i saw a few guys roll off their tubulars in competition.


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[Abl3rider]

My cross bike is 8 speed Campy Ergo with triple, so I use it as my mountain gran fondo bike, as well. It's Rad! But the rear wheel was hard to get a hub/rim for that would work with my Campy Record OR group. No modern wheel companies like PSI MET offer anything compatible. So I got vintage Record 32 h, with Belgium +. Used DT Aero Light spokes up front and rear non drive side. WHEELSMITH butted 1.7 rear drive side. 3X. Rear wheel alone is 500 grams lighter than what I had before (40 spoke Phil Wood hub/Sun touring/tandem rim).


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[mattr]

Just last season i saw a few guys roll off their tubulars in competition.

"A few".

You need some better riders (or mechanics anyway) i've seen maybe 5 in 20+ years of riding cross.

[Abl3rider]

What about Beloki breaking his pelvis on the hot pavement decent with Armstrong back in the day. Bad mechanic?

The guys who rolled their tyres that I saw had been glued by their LBS. one first race on new Zipps. Everybody had heard tubulars are the best for cross, but not practical for me. And glue?!? Come on. Glue! Out here in the mid Atlantic, Gunnar Shogren and plenty other fast guys ride tubeless for cross.



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[boysa]

The guys who rolled their tyres that I saw had been glued by their LBS.

And therein lies their first mistake. Glue your own tires. It isn't rocket surgery, and you know it will be done RIGHT.