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 Post subject: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:34 am
Posts: 30
Hey folks I'm interested in your experience with tubeless for road and cross. Because I'm a bit spooked.

First off, I've never tried tubular. I've had good results with clinchers for both road and cross. Here in the mid Atlantic thorns are not an issue on cross courses and on road, as long as my tires are good quality (Conti) and not too worn i often go months without a flat. I use race butyl tubes but am dabbling with latex recently.

Here's my experience with tubeless. I upgraded my wheels for cross halfway through the season. Vintage 1995 Mountain Goat Rt 66 with Campy 8 speed Ergo. Went with HED Belgium + / Clement PDX Tubeless. Was hard to find the right hub and cassette for old Campy but I found a nice 32 H 8-spd Record hubset and replaced the axle with a NOS 135 mm axle and a Campy 5mm spacer. Saved 500 g just on rear wheel! Old wheel was touring/tandem type 40 spoke.

So I used about 4 oz of Orange sealant. Rode it a few days then raced it. Ran 25 psi. Washed out and went down front tire burped and lost about 10psi. Finished well with soft front. Several other races no issues. Had had to refresh sealant on rear after a few months as it started loosing air. All good now.

ROAD: just got a Giant TCR Advanced Pro SL 1 two weeks ago. It came set up tubeless with Giant SLR1 wheels. They said it has Giant sealant in it. Giant tires. So rode it three times before racing it without issue.

38 miles into a 40 mile road race I'm near the front of what's left of the peloton. Feeling good. Preparing mentally for the sprint finish. When my rear tire starts squirming around. Ignore it keep going... another mile rear is soft and making it hard to hold position. I'm concerned about the upcoming right turn into the final stretch. I look back at my tire to see just how bad it is and KANK KANK KLANK my front spokes have touched quick release of bike in front of me! So I raise my arm and pull over. Rear is very soft but not flat flat. 3 spokes slightly bent front wheel out of true.

Next day rear tire still has 15 psi didn't leak overnight and tire looks perfect, so I pump her back up to 100 and put her in the bath. No leak. So I've ridden her a couple hundred miles since with no issue.

Ok now. Do I try to race it again? Or just put on my Conti Gran Prix with tubes not to risk it? Is this all part of the tires "getting settled and the sealant taking a firm seal" ? During the race I hit no big pots but at one point I did get forced onto the gravel for a brief moment. I had it inflated to just over 100. Why I seemingly burped all but 15 psi with no big impacts is still a mystery.

Any shared experience/wisdom would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Abl3rider






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 Post subject: Tubeless trouble
Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:57 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Posts: 3289
Burps happen, sometimes.

Rear tyre sounds like you had a puncture that sealed.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:34 am
Posts: 30
Thats likely, didn't seal soon enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:36 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:05 pm
Posts: 71
That sounds exactly like you had a puncture seal. Normally you end up with sealant all over your frame for evidence. As far as continuing on tubeless? I say go for it. I still can't figure out why I was so hesitant in seasons past to TL on the road.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:36 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Almere - Nederland
Sometimes when cyclists are riding behind me they told me that some water was sprinkling out of my tires.! :lol: So I had to told them that it are tubeless tires with latex sealant and that with a puncture normally I can continuing riding. :)

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Pinarello F10 - Ultegra 6800 - Carbonspeed C38 - Tubeless


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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:20 am 
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in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 3229
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
how big is the rear tyre? 23mm tubeless tyres loose to much air before sealing. a bigger tyre fairs better. many tubeless tyres use soft cut prone rubber. IRC formula pro rbcc tubeless tyres use a hard wear resistant and cut resistant compound with rice bran ceramic compound (rbcc) that provides grip in the wet like mo other tyre except a hanful of tubulars. thats my experience anyway.

so go with a bigger tyres for sure but also remember all tubeless tyres like clinchers are not created equal.

burping results if the tyre is not secure against the rim. the interface has to be spot on for burping to be an non issue at low pressure. not all tyres and rims achieve this though. irc cx tyres on stans and kinlin rims do though. stans cx tyres are made by irc, that gives you a hint.

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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:34 am
Posts: 30
These are 25mm Giant tires


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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:40 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:34 am
Posts: 30
I'll look into the IRC and other options for tubeless


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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:34 am
Posts: 30
Ltyarbro42, no sealant on frame at all. Good idea to look for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:00 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 3229
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
i sssumed there was sealant in the tyre. maybe there was not or not enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:42 am
Posts: 154
Belgium+ are really great rims, but for tubeless cross they aren't the best. They burp, as you found out. You need a really tight fitting tire (really tight) to run them down to 25 reliably. Hutchinson Toros and Black Mambas are such tires and work fairly well with them. Stan's Grails are really in their own league as far as tubeless cross tires go right now. With most tubeless cross tires, it's a real chore to get the tire to unseat from the bead shelf on a Grail even with no air pressure.

For road tubeless, burping is a non-issue. The way I think about it is that you need either big volume or big pressure, or medium both. With mtb you get big volume at low pressure, with road you get low volume at high pressure. Both work quite easily. Gravel is more of the medium and medium. With cross you have low-ish volume at low pressure. You really need a great combo to have that work very well.

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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:47 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:34 am
Posts: 30
Interesting! Yes there is sealant in my tires. Giant brand I believe I was told not to mix my Orange with the sealant that came with my TCR. So if burping isn't an issue on road tubeless as I was running 100 psi I must have punctured.

But there is no evidence of residual sealant on the frame. And it only resealed once it was down to 15 PSI effectively costing me a good race result.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 8:04 am 
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in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 3229
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
no tubeless tyre is a tight fit to the hed rims, i have tried. for road tubeless they are fine.

it sounds like there may not be enough sealant in the tyre. have you checked? the giant sealant may also be useless.

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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:34 am
Posts: 30
For cross my HED Belgium + w/ Clement PDX have only burped once in about 8 races, and i was still able to finish. But I have to run about 25 PSI . Kind of defeats the purpose of running tubeless (the ability to run really low pressures).

For my TCR, there is definitely sealant as it comes out when I depress the valve. Now I've ridden a few hundred miles with no more leaks so I'm starting to think it was just a fluke.
Too bad it happened in a race!


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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:06 pm
Posts: 441
Location: Yorkshire - God's Own Country
Abl3rider wrote:
.... And it only resealed once it was down to 15 PSI effectively costing me a good race result.


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It didn't cost you a good race result - with a clincher and tube you'd have flatted when the puncture occurred and had to stop right there!


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 Post subject: Re: Tubeless trouble
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 6:02 pm 


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