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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:46 am 
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Location: Beringen, Belgium
sugarkane wrote:
So the comments have been closed and deleted thanks to Victors excessively commercially oriented comments and the Shit storm that created :beerchug: congrats Victor that's a cycling tips first :lol:



Haha, that's not entirely correct. I did try to discuss the failings in their understanding of how things work, and how to assess fact from fiction in private too. I emailed the editor, and Matt directly and never made any meaningful progress... I am not sure how presenting a product as being made using wet filament winding, while demonstrably not being filament wound is a good thing for anyone.

I should add that I only found out about that review and this thread on WW from people emaling me or tagging me on FB (CT review) and asking what the hell?

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Last edited by vmajor on Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:52 am 
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kulivontot wrote:
Victor, how about you buy a set of these rims, saw them in half and explain what's different. It comes off as overly defensive when you're actively running around the internet calling your competitors liars.
I have no doubt there's something fishy about fse, but I feel like this threads getting derailed by a singular claim about filament winding.


Well, I actually have no incentive to do so. We are not being commercially harmed by this and if you observe what I am saying, I am focusing specifically on their claim that the rims are filament wound while offering no evidence, not even visual evidence of their rims being filament wound. There is also a back story to this, so I am sorry if my comments appear vindictive or petty, but the story is here in WW forum and repeating it every time with all posts that I make would appear even more petty.

I have no qualms about FSE rims quality, or performance or anything really, just the claim about wet filament winding of rims - the process that we pioneered.

All that FSE need to do if they are so inclined, is to show their rims without the fabric final layer. Adding a final layer to a filament wound rim makes no commercial sense as it is a manual process, adds weight and adds cost, and fabric CANNOT be made by using a filament winding method.

EDIT: and yes, I am conscious about derailing the thread. I did try to direct questions to "our" thread, and I am staying out of any commercial decisions or performance discussions. Also, I only got involved in this thread when my name was directly mentioned - I felt obliged to respond, and I keep getting asked direct questions that I feel obliged to respond to as well.

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Last edited by vmajor on Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:52 am 


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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:57 am 
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glepore wrote:
I don't really have a dog in the fight either. What I don't get is if filament winding is not a performance/quality advantage, why would a supplier claim their rims are when they're not? Because its a buzzword?


It is a buzzword. The next buzzword will be "made by a robot", or "100% machine made" or something like that.

The problem with use of "filament wound" as a buzzword is that it actually has real meaning. It is not a generic term.

I am expecting that our and other automated processes will start decreasing the price of high performance carbon rims pretty soon.

V.

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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:00 am 
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Location: Beringen, Belgium
spartan wrote:

@victor. why are you rims not available for purchase in north america? who is selling complete wheelsets? if you have such a pricing advantage why have you not partnered to oem you rims on trek/specialized/..


I will ask them if I can share this once they are ready. They ordered the first samples and will hopefully follow through with a full order. I need to allow our customers to perform their own commercial activities.

EDIT: all rims except Venn 507 TCC and TCD are available to customers in north America.

V.

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Last edited by vmajor on Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:23 am 
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If anyone has any questions about filament winding, or wants to know more about our rims please ask the questions here: viewtopic.php?f=113&t=131368

I am also finding this FSE thread intrusion distracting, and besides the point. I will not reply to any more posts here so please do not ask me any direct questions in this thread.

V.

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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:36 am 
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Posts: 568
Location: Az USA
mpulsiv wrote:
AZR3 wrote:
Little update, asked Madcow if he could weight my rims (25mm clincher) before building up my wheels and he was super quick in replying with weights, front is 358.4g in 20 hole drilling and rear is 356.9g in 24 hole drilling. Pretty close to FSE's claim of 350g :thumbup:


Wait, which rims did you get?
https://fairwheelbikes.com/wheels/rims/ ... ory_page=1


Read my previous post or the one you quoted above. (If you still can't figure it out it's FSE's 25mm clincher, it's just not listed on Fairwheel Bikes site yet as they've just started to receive small batches of rims)


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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:33 pm 
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AZR3 wrote:
Little update, asked Madcow if he could weight my rims (25mm clincher) before building up my wheels and he was super quick in replying with weights, front is 358.4g in 20 hole drilling and rear is 356.9g in 24 hole drilling. Pretty close to FSE's claim of 350g :thumbup:

I find it a little sad that a 2% difference to the manufacturer's claim is perceived to be alright.


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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Location: Az USA
The last wheelset I bought was 14% over claimed weight so I'll take 2%!

Edit-their tolerance is +-15g so it could have been better or much worse


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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:14 pm 
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AZR3 wrote:
The last wheelset I bought was 14% over claimed weight so I'll take 2%!

Edit-their tolerance is +-15g so it could have been better or much worse

Exactly, the sad part is that some manufacturers make claims so ridiculously false that we think 2% is alright.

Unless we see some FSE rims that are lighter than claimed, I would assume that the actual tolerance is something like +5g to +15g. 15g is close to 5% deviation with a difference of over 5% being a valid reason for a refund in some countries.

Campa/Fulcrum have been showing how it can be done differently in recent years with a lot of wheelsets being lighter than claimed.


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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Location: Az USA
Which is surprising given most Italian brands are typically overweight

Edit-and I'm not sure how many rims have been weighed so it's possible that some could be under as well, not trying to defend FSE but to judge from just two rim weights is a little premature.


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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:01 pm 
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vmajor wrote:

Well, I actually have no incentive to do so. We are not being commercially harmed by this

So you have no incentive to do this, yet you have incentive enough to run around Internet forums and cyclingtips comment sections pointing fingers and talking trash about a product that you've never seen. Seems a little petty and amateurish. Sometimes the better course of action is to just walk away.


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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:57 pm 
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If my product is differentiated from others' based on a particular tech, and my competitors claim to use the same tech to make their products, then absolutely yes I believe my company is commercially harmed by their claim. Am I missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Posts: 148
AZR3 wrote:
Which is surprising given most Italian brands are typically overweight

Edit-and I'm not sure how many rims have been weighed so it's possible that some could be under as well, not trying to defend FSE but to judge from just two rim weights is a little premature.

Yes, my assumption is based on experience with other brands, so it could be unfair. We'll see over time what FSEs' tolerances are.


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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:58 pm 
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kulivontot wrote:
vmajor wrote:

Well, I actually have no incentive to do so. We are not being commercially harmed by this

So you have no incentive to do this, yet you have incentive enough to run around Internet forums and cyclingtips comment sections pointing fingers and talking trash about a product that you've never seen. Seems a little petty and amateurish. Sometimes the better course of action is to just walk away.



I have seen the rims. Nothing observable indicates that they are filament wound. This is not open to debate. It is only a point of discussion because FSE made a claim that they use the wet filament winding process that we use, and that is our core point of differentiation in the marketplace. They have not shown any rims made using our process, or that can be observed to be manufactured by an alternative filament winding process.

FSE approached us last year about supplying them with rims. They chose a different supplier. Perhaps they had already committed to a marketing direction and switched suppliers at a later date but decided to run with the original pitch using the information that I provided them with.

Regarding the harm to us due to competitors claiming to use the same differentiating tech as us, yes there is that possibility and my public involvement started after having some confused potential customers talk to me asking me how our rims compare to the FSE rims. I sent an email to FSE before I replied to them. I also contacted Cyclingtips for clarity assuming that they had good information about the FSE process, and before I made any comments on CT. Back then I had no idea what to tell anyone (I have a fair idea now) as FSE rims do not appear to be filament wound in any way. I never got a reply from FSE.

Why I say that we are not being affected commercially is because we are not FSE's customer, and our main customers are OEM customers. OEM buyers always perform factory inspections prior to entering into any supply agreement, and they also do a pretty thorough deconstruction of rims to see how they are made - we help them along by providing rim cross sections for inspection like this. You can observe the continuous filament winding pattern on both the outside and on the inside of the rim.

Image

We also do not "own" the concept of filament winding. Lightweight uses a filament winding process to manufacture the Wegweiser, this version:

Image

There are others coming soon. What they all have in common though is their actual observable use of filament winding to make their rims.

I hope this helps.

I am more than glad to answer any further questions but please ask me in the other thread, or via PM, or email.

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Venn Cycling
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Cycle Taiwan


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 Post subject: Re: FSE wheels?
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:58 pm 


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 Post subject: FSE wheels?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:35 pm 
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I'm going back to my debate as to why would someone drop more coins (over $1100) on FSE wheels, if you can pick up these http://www.carbonspeedcycle.com/product ... ke-surface wheels for $310? I would not be surprised if FSE production factory is in ~ 50km radius from CarbonCycle production factory.
I'm willing to pay premium but what exactly FSE is selling me?

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