Upgrade to ENVE New SES 3.4

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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xmashx
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:30 am

by xmashx

Hello to everyone!

I currently ride on HED Stinger 4 and ZIPP FC 404 (both tubulars). I am not really happy with the 404. It's too deep as all-round wheel in my opinion and not super cool for racing due to being to flex and hitting brake pads while sprinting. On the other side, I am quite happy with the Stinger 4 (I used Stinger 6 a bit too, so I have some comparison here). Fairly light for climbing, still with aero benefits. Unfortunately, seems like my rear wheel it's going slowly to it's end as I use it in 99% of cases. I was thinking to build a new one but seems like HED has dropped the 46mm deep rims.

So I started to think about a new wheelset and seems like I'm mainly focused on the ENVE 3.4. I've been googling for a while but still have some questions about it.

The first one is rather easy. Is it possible to make conversion from Shimano to Campy and vice versa? I guess it depends on a hub that is used. As ENVE offers the wheels with 4 different hubs, how about the possibility with them?

And here is my main question regarding choosing the right hubs. I know the CK are really nice but I am not convinced to them I currently use Campy and I read about issues with CK with Campy with adjustments and a quick changing wheels if needed.
Unfortunately, there is no much information about the ENVE Carbon Hub. Has anyone already ridden on them and have some judgment? Especially in comparison to other offered by ENVE. I believe, the DT SWISS 240 would be still fine, however why not to consider better options if possible? ;-) Durability and stiffness are the main factors here I guess. Worth to pay extra?

Also, from this forum I know that basically everyone recommends the Alchemy hubs. As I live in Europe, I think it's not an easy option to me. I haven't heard about any wheelbuilders in Europe who use ENVE rims (and Alchemy hubs). Ordering from the US directly would be rather expensive especially if adding shipping costs, customs etc.
However, maybe I am wrong here, and some Europeans already experienced with it?

Looking forward to hear your comments.
Best regards.

EDIT: I just noticed some weird data at enve.com regarding wheel weight. The 3.4 weights 1272g and 4.5 weights 1281g (both tubular w/ enve hub). In which case is a typo? :D

by Weenie


BdaGhisallo
Posts: 1838
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:38 pm

by BdaGhisallo

If you want the Enve rims and want a simple dependable hub and a wheel that is laterally stiff, go with DT 240s hubs and build with normal (and thicker than aero spokes) double butted spokes. You won't lose much aero wise and the thicker spokes will get you some added lateral stiffness. The 240 hub is really simple to run and super easy to maintain.

jeffy
Posts: 1252
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:51 pm

by jeffy

IIRC enve hubs have 240 internals

BdaGhisallo
Posts: 1838
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:38 pm

by BdaGhisallo

jeffy wrote:IIRC enve hubs have 240 internals


I believe they do.

Multebear
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

xmashx wrote:
1) CK Is it possible to make conversion from Shimano to Campy and vice versa?

2) issues with CK with Campy with adjustments and a quick changing wheels if needed.

3) Has anyone already ridden on them and have some judgment? Especially in comparison to other offered by ENVE.

4) I believe, the DT SWISS 240 would be still fine,

5) however why not to consider better options if possible? ;-) Durability and stiffness are the main factors here I guess. Worth to pay extra?

6) Alchemy hubs.



1) Yes, it's possible. I did it when I went from Campa groupset to Dura ace. But it's quite expensive since you need to change not only the body, you need to chance axle and a bearing and some other smaller parts as well. I think I paid around 300 euros for the change.

2) Never heard of it. CK generally make top products. So this would surprise me a lot.

4) DT 240s are the safe bet. Parts are very easy to source and the design has proven it's worth over the years. These are the no-BS hubs, that wont let you down.

5) Better options? I consider CK's the best performing hubs on the marked. And I have wheels with DT 240, CK R45, Shimano DA, and WI T11. WI T11 and CK build the stiffest wheels according to the experienced wheelbuilders in here. CK are pure race, while WI have more durability due to TI body and because they're generally just very well designed to the point, where they are probably overbuild. But they are heavier as well.

6) Don't know much about them. Haven't meet anyone riding them here in eu, and haven't heard anyone talk about them. I'm probably wrong, but aren't they Bitex? They certainly look like Bitex hubs.

EDIT: WI are my favorite hubs. They are the prettiest, and they are very durable. TI body is a big + as well. Only Shimano DA offers TI body besides WI.

kode54
Posts: 1126
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:39 pm

by kode54

BdaGhisallo wrote:
jeffy wrote:IIRC enve hubs have 240 internals


I believe they do.


Yes, i put a new free hub on mine recently. same internals...although the Enve bearings are ceramic...from what Enve told me in a phone conversation. i went with regular bearings in the free hub since it won't matter much to me in the free hub.
- AX Lightness Vial EVO D + DA9150 + Enve SES 3.4 carbon hubs
- Parlee Altum + DA9150 + Enve SES 4.5 carbon hubs
- Parlee ESX + DA9150 + THM SRM PM + Enve SES 6.7 CK hubs
- Independent Fabrication Ti FLW + DA9100 + Enve 3.4 CK hubs

kode54
Posts: 1126
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:39 pm

by kode54

i swapped on CK hub from Shimano to Campy. yes, the conversion is not cheap. easy to do even though not as easy as DT Swiss swap. you need to get free hub off and the axle as well. IIRC, the end cap as well. comes in a kit from various sources.

as far as issues with CK. generally, i haven't had any. only one that i had was the slight play in my 4.5 SES wheels. i never noticed it when it was new, so i rode it for a few thousand miles. that's when i noticed the play...and it was more than from factory. it probably made it worse, but after reading about the CK hubs...i should have inspected after a few rides and tighten it up. long story short, i ruined the bearings which had to be replaced since the bearing races were worn from the excess play. OTOH, my previous CK subbed Enve wheels never had play and rode very well. go figure.

i've ridden on the Enve wheels with CK, DT Swiss, and their Enve carbon hubs. i still like the DT Swiss internals (currently on Enve carbon hubs) since they are so easy to service and maintain. that's just me.



Multebear wrote:
xmashx wrote:
1) CK Is it possible to make conversion from Shimano to Campy and vice versa?

2) issues with CK with Campy with adjustments and a quick changing wheels if needed.

3) Has anyone already ridden on them and have some judgment? Especially in comparison to other offered by ENVE.

4) I believe, the DT SWISS 240 would be still fine,

5) however why not to consider better options if possible? ;-) Durability and stiffness are the main factors here I guess. Worth to pay extra?

6) Alchemy hubs.



1) Yes, it's possible. I did it when I went from Campa groupset to Dura ace. But it's quite expensive since you need to change not only the body, you need to chance axle and a bearing and some other smaller parts as well. I think I paid around 300 euros for the change.

2) Never heard of it. CK generally make top products. So this would surprise me a lot.

4) DT 240s are the safe bet. Parts are very easy to source and the design has proven it's worth over the years. These are the no-BS hubs, that wont let you down.

5) Better options? I consider CK's the best performing hubs on the marked. And I have wheels with DT 240, CK R45, Shimano DA, and WI T11. WI T11 and CK build the stiffest wheels according to the experienced wheelbuilders in here. CK are pure race, while WI have more durability due to TI body and because they're generally just very well designed to the point, where they are probably overbuild. But they are heavier as well.

6) Don't know much about them. Haven't meet anyone riding them here in eu, and haven't heard anyone talk about them. I'm probably wrong, but aren't they Bitex? They certainly look like Bitex hubs.

EDIT: WI are my favorite hubs. They are the prettiest, and they are very durable. TI body is a big + as well. Only Shimano DA offers TI body besides WI.
- AX Lightness Vial EVO D + DA9150 + Enve SES 3.4 carbon hubs
- Parlee Altum + DA9150 + Enve SES 4.5 carbon hubs
- Parlee ESX + DA9150 + THM SRM PM + Enve SES 6.7 CK hubs
- Independent Fabrication Ti FLW + DA9100 + Enve 3.4 CK hubs

gitsome
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:03 am
Location: nyc

by gitsome

Ive been told newer enve rims wont work w campy skeleton brakes (*sr) due to tire fitment being too large when expanded on wider rims. Anyone able to confirm/deny this whose using newest emve rims w campy?


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Tqubed
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:17 pm

by Tqubed

jeffy wrote:IIRC enve hubs have 240 internals


The driver is from DT- Swiss and the bearings come from Ceramic Speed.


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xmashx
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:30 am

by xmashx

Thanks to all answers. I really appreciate it.

So, basically I can order with the regular DT240 and later change to the ceramicspeed bearings and I got almost the same thing as the ENVE hubs, right? And the ENVE hubs are no stiffer than the DT240, if I need more stiffness I have to go with the CK hub or different spokes.

There is still one question missing from the OP that is quite interesting:
I just noticed some weird data at enve.com regarding wheel weight. The 3.4 weights 1272g and 4.5 weights 1281g (both tubular w/ enve hub). In which case is a typo?

gitsome
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:03 am
Location: nyc

by gitsome

If its the new 3.4 it is bc they are substantially wider and tubless compatible the 4.5 are not (yet)

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Beaver
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:06 pm
Location: Lower Saxony - Germany

by Beaver

gitsome wrote:Ive been told newer enve rims wont work w campy skeleton brakes (*sr) due to tire fitment being too large when expanded on wider rims. Anyone able to confirm/deny this whose using newest emve rims w campy?


No personal experience, but most modern rim brakes accept only 28mm wide rims - these are 29,75mm.

Shimano offers 1mm slimmer brake pads for wide carbon rims, not sure about Campy.

But even with slim brake pads, it's the limit and brake pad rub will be possible. Time for rim brakes with more clearance... I wonder what Enve recommended brakes are...?

by Weenie


gitsome
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:03 am
Location: nyc

by gitsome

They didnt say.

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