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 Post subject: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:14 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:13 pm
Posts: 42
Hi,
What would you guys reccomend as winter training wheels due to my crappy axis classic rims getting f*cked after only 20000km :( . Ideally would have cartridge bearings, be bombproof to deal with UK winter and weight doesn't matter so anything around 2000g is fine.
Thanks,


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 Post subject: winter wheel advice
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:14 am 


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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:07 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:43 pm
Posts: 200
Location: Los Angeles, California
Only 20,000k? That's decent mileage out of an inexpensive wheelset, in my opinion.
You did not mention price, so my recommendation cuts to the chase for the Dura Ace WH-9000 C24 at about $700 or so online in the UK. The Ultegra level RS81 can be had for around $400. Or the previous iteration WH-6800 for under $300. If you run disk brakes, Fulcrum has some nice offerings.

The above Shimano wheels use loose balls, which I like more than cartridge bearings. (Unless you meant "sealed bearings," which can still experience moisture getting in.) The Shimano hubs are very easy to rebuild/repack. The rims are strong as heck.

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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:10 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm
Posts: 815
i'm using mavic krysiums as my winter wheel but i think a shimano rs81 or campy zondas should work.

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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:23 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm
Posts: 984
Asteroid wrote:
Only 20,000k? That's decent mileage out of an inexpensive wheelset, in my opinion.
You did not mention price, so my recommendation cuts to the chase for the Dura Ace WH-9000 C24 at about $700 or so online in the UK. The Ultegra level RS81 can be had for around $400. Or the previous iteration WH-6800 for under $300. If you run disk brakes, Fulcrum has some nice offerings.

The above Shimano wheels use loose balls, which I like more than cartridge bearings. (Unless you meant "sealed bearings," which can still experience moisture getting in.) The Shimano hubs are very easy to rebuild/repack. The rims are strong as heck.


I thought that Shimano "cup-and-cone" hubs are not ideal for foul weather.


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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:36 am 
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Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Posts: 3287
Cup and Cone hubs are pretty much without equal at the price they come in at.

Only proviso for using them in poor weather is cracking them open when new and filling with a much higher quality and volume of grease and then a semi regular service (yearly for me, only takes half an hour to do both). I've got ultegra hubs that have done over a decade of winter use (6500, bought them not long after launch.) I've also got D-A of the same era that have not had as much bad weather use, but still run perfectly. Both now pressed into service as CX wheels.

Only weaknesses are leaving them with the factory fill (which isn't optimised for bad weather, but for "normal" riding) and the freehub will eventually pop, especially with lots of cleaning/degreaser (unavoidable in the winter!) They can usually be replaced for not so much. Ultegra was about £30-40 last i looked, half an hour or so to swap. Only done it once on my old Ultegras, D-A is still on the original.

Most of the CNC/sealed bearing hubs i've had have either corroded to nothingness (usually a flange failure) or one of the (many) bearings has failed and worn/damaged the shell or axle, which is a 50/50 to putting the hub beyond economic repair once you factor in the obsolescence of the part. Unless you get something REALLY expensive where parts are still available/compatible.
Other issue with factory wheels is that by the time the rim has had it the manufacturer has got bored and moved on, so you either can't get the rim (or it costs more than you paid for the wheels) or the proprietary nipples have seized, and the proprietary spokes aren't available any more........ and the wheel is a write off......

My pick for winter wheels is almost always something like ultegra laced 32 3x to a stock rim of some description, open pro, open sport, a CX of some description, TB14, Archetype. The list is long.

You can replace the rim every two or three years and reuse spokes and hub. I've been doing my own for ~20 years, it's better than therapy ;)

(My ultegra hubs have probably had 8 or 9 rims between them........)

Edit, Ultegra hubs were bought in 1998 and have at least 100000 miles on them, D-A (7700) were bought the following year i think and have around 40000 miles on them, still on the original rims.


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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:12 am 
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm
Posts: 804
Asteroid wrote:

Dura Ace WH-9000 C24

RS81

WH-6800

The Shimano hubs are very easy to rebuild/repack. The rims are strong as heck.



Definitely good wheels, especially for sunny Cali. But for UK winter, I would choose something more durable.

BTW how do you rebuild the hubs? You'll need 20/16 spoked rims. 20 is no problem, but 16 are rare. I've been looking at this problem as well, but haven't found a good solution as of yet.

I'd second mattr's suggestions. In order to ride countless troublefree miles in Northern European weather, you need very durable hubs and rims.

Both DA and Ultegra hubs are fine choices. I guess 105 hubs might work as well. Other than Shimano hubs, there's also Miche Primato Syntesi, which I've done more than 7.500 trouble free km's on at the moment. Only drawback is the freehub body, which over time gets bite marks from the cassette. I know that bm0p700f praises them a lot.

For rims, several options come to mind. Open pro's are very durable. But my personal favorit are the Mavic A119. They have more brakewall than Open Pro's, and they are wider at 23 mm. And finally they are the cheapest rims out there. You'll get almost 3 Mavic A119 rims at the price of one Open Pro. I've stocked

Rigida DP 18 rims have proven very durable over the years as well.

If one wants to move away from box section rims into something a little more U shaped, I would take a look at the DT R460 rims. They are very affordable as well, and come in all spokedrillings. Where as the Open Pro's and the A119's only come in 32/36.


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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:12 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:08 am
Posts: 833
DA and Ultegra have preload adjustment via finger and very good seals. Personally I'd rather re-pack bearings than press out and press in cartridges. Just me. There is also a tool made where you can press out all the old grease inside the freehub and replace with new grease without disassembling it.


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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:08 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles, California
F45 wrote:
DA and Ultegra have preload adjustment via finger and very good seals. Personally I'd rather re-pack bearings than press out and press in cartridges. Just me.


Same here. I recently rebuilt my C24 9000's (2nd time at 12k miles) and the cups/cones/bearings showed zero wear. Nothing gets in there and I am doubly careful to keep cleaning solutions out of the vicinity. People should understand that Shimano makes incredibly stout rims, too.

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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:28 pm 
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Posts: 4749
There is nothing you can do when a cartridge bearing starts to wear... you just have to accept it getting worse and worse until you ultimately replace it. Cup and cone wheel bearings are infinitely adjustable. In fact, on the latest Boras Campy made the thread pitch for the adjusting nut even finer than it was before. Thus, they can always be perfect and they take so so much longer to wear out. They can also be completely removed, flushed out, and repacked with whatever grease you choose. Just really good. Whereas with cartridge bearings you just pop them out and replace them, which I guess is what makes them popular amongst service guys. Who wants to take the time to flush out and clean all the individual bearings in a cup and cone system then repack them with grease, when you can just pop out a cartridge bearing and replace it. Cup and cone bearings are thus more labor intensive to maintain I suppose, but isn't that part of the enjoyment of owning a fine bicycle. I get that it's not for some, but I feel that I can't wait sometimes to rebuild something and have it feel better than new, not worse.

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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:13 pm
Posts: 42
Thanks for all your replys. Probably should have mentioned that ideally the wheels would be around £100 due to them just being winter wheels so probably no c24s! Is it possible to handbuild wheels on this budget cos I like the idea. Don't mind going second hand for parts either. Only problem I have with handbuilts is that i have no clue how to build wheels!


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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm
Posts: 1479
At that price, you should just get some Mavic Aksiums or low end Fulcrum wheels. The labor on a nice hand-built wheelset will probably cost £100 pounds.

I was going to recommend some nice hubs and Hed Belgium rims. With 32 spokes they would be sturdy high-performing winter wheels but that would set you back £500.

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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:30 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm
Posts: 804
JamesGRC wrote:

Probably should have mentioned that ideally the wheels would be around £100 due to them just being winter wheels

Is it possible to handbuild wheels on this budget cos I like the idea.

Only problem I have with handbuilts is that i have no clue how to build wheels!



Almost. It'll probably be around 115 for parts.

70 for Shimano 105 hubs at chainreaction
26 for Mavic A119 rims at chainreaction
15'ish for spokes and nipples
5'ish for rimtape

It's possible to build them yourself, but it will take some time to learn. On the other hand, with those parts, you won't be able to brake anything while trying.

You'll probably have to pay around 60-80 to get someone else to do it for you.

If you're up to the task yourself, then read this book first:

http://tri.by/content/files/artofwheelbuilding.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:25 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:13 pm
Posts: 42
That sounds good, liking the idea of aksiums too tho. Loads of people ride them and say they're bombproof and I like the simplicity of the cartridge bearing


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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:56 am 
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 3228
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
your all wrong. The best hubs are not shimano too expensive. Miche make a very reliable hub called the Primato syntesi. way cheaper and they provide exceptional bearing life. Big 6001 cartridge bearings, bearing preload adjustment front and rear and a 12mm diameter steel axle for the rear. A simple hub that works. Parts will tot up to more than £100 though.

Askium wheels have reliable hub but I will stop there. Bombproof they are not. the new ones are better as the rim is wider but they still have a very low spoke count and are not that stiff.

I have pm'd you

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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:56 am 


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 Post subject: Re: winter wheel advice
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:24 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:08 am
Posts: 833
How are the seals on the Miche?


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