Seeking advise on wheelset

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
evan326
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:51 pm
Location: RVA,USA

by evan326

Hi, I've been lurking here a while trying to absorb as much info as I can.
I have a '16 CAAD 12 105, so far I've only changed the tires to GP4000IIS and tubes to race 28 lite. All of the other changes I've done to my bike have been to adjust fitment (saddle, seatpost). I was also trying to keep weight in mind too. I want to make this bike as light as possible without wasting money. Talking to people at my lbs, and reading here, wheels are something I should be looking at next for the most noticeable difference. Instead of buying a set off the shelf, I'm looking at a custom set. I've been toying with a few on prowheelbuilder. Wanting this to be a fairly cheap set, but also as light as can be used regularly. I think I've settled on the xr22 as the rim. For the hubs I'm a bit less sure. I want to try out the bitex hubs, but the price seems too good to be true, any experience with these? Here is a link to the set I'm thinking of http://www.prowheelbuilder.com/cw/?step ... il&id=7711 and here http://www.prowheelbuilder.com/cw/?step ... il&id=7716 is the higher end set I was thinking of (funds permitting)
I'm 69kg and ride on about 10mi of country back roads, then the rest on an asphalt bike path. I hope I'm not leaving out any other useful info.

Thanks!

by Weenie


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Asteroid
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:43 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

by Asteroid

Looks like a nice wheelset. Clever way of configuring using their website. Some additional costs to add, like skewers and shipping. Let us know how your new wheelset turns out. Get 'em before the weather keeps you off the roads!
Oldbie

AJS914
Posts: 1903
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I'd personally want more spokes for reliability. In the link you have 16/20 spokes selected.

Multebear
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

Bitex hubs are ok hubs. Nothing fancy. They weight saving comes at a price. They aren't very durable. The seals for the bearings are not very good, and thus bearings need regular replacing if they get some occasionally bad weather. You might want to look for some higher end hubs or some heavier ones, if you want something more reliable.

evan326
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:51 pm
Location: RVA,USA

by evan326

Any suggestions on hub that are higher end? I was looking at the WI T11's, but just changing those makes the set go up by about $330. Would it be a stupid idea to get the bitex hub and just replace them with the WI once they've worn? Or would it just be better to wait until I'm ready to spring for the WI entirely?

For spokes, would 20/20 be a safer bet for reliability? My stock mavic aksiums are 20/20 now, and from what I've read the cx ray's are bound to be much stiffer than what I already have.

Thanks

AJS914
Posts: 1903
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Yes, it would be stupid to replace hubs after the fact. You might check out November Cycles alloy wheels. They come standard with the White hubs at a good price.

http://www.novemberbicycles.com/select/

I can't advise you on spokes but personally, I'd go for 20/24 or 24/28 for reliability. I'd rather pay the small weight penalty to have more spokes.

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F45
Posts: 857
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:08 am

by F45

Cheap and light you're going with an Asian hub, period. The rim is not aero so you lose nothing by adding a few more spokes.

evan326
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:51 pm
Location: RVA,USA

by evan326

Thanks for the replies. I'll check out November thanks!
Please forgive my ignorance, but would the xr31 be considered aero compared to the xr22? If not would there be any reason to not go with the xr22 instead for a lighter wheel?

Multebear
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

I know this is weight weenies, but people tend to focus to much on the weight, instead of getting something that is actually useful and durable.

If light weight and affordable are your only priorities, then xr22 and Bitex are definitely a good choice.

But if you actually want something, that will give you many trouble free miles, then you have to consider compromising on either weight or price tag.

WI T11 are some of the best hubs out there. Neither light nor cheap though. I have a set, and I'm very happy with them. You might consider Dura Ace hubs as well. A little bit cheaper than the WI, but I would consider the two of equal quality.

Regarding spoke configuration, I wouldn't go below 20/24 even with your weight. With the Dura Ace hubs you could do 18/24.

Xr31 are def. more aero than xr22. But remember, these are alloy rims. If you really want aero, you need deep section carbon rims. At least 35 mm in depth. Preferably 38-45 mm depth with your weight.

As you're in US, you might want to check out Boyd Altamont wheels. Good and light rims, and a couple different hub options including Whites.

NovemberDave
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Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:42 am
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by NovemberDave

Multebear wrote:Xr31 are def. more aero than xr22. But remember, these are alloy rims. If you really want aero, you need deep section carbon rims. At least 35 mm in depth. Preferably 38-45 mm depth with your weight.


This is a popular conception, but I'm not sure that it lines up with the data (actually I'm certain it contradicts the data I'm just being tactful with my wording). For example, let's compare an Enve 3.4 and a Kinlin XC279, both with 23c Continental GP4000sII tires inflated to 100psi (A2 wind tunnel protocol inflation). If we take the yaw points of 0-12.5 degrees at each 2.5*, and weight each equally, then the front wheel difference totals 11 seconds over the course of a 40k TT at 30mph (wind tunnel protocol speed) in favor of the Enve 3.4 front. Since the rear wheel has only about half the aerodynamic impact of the front, the difference in a full set of wheels would favor the Enve 3.4 by 16.5 seconds over the course of the 40k TT at 30mph.

It is now much more broadly accepted that low yaw angles predominate in actual real world yaw conditions, with yaw angles of 10* or less occurring over 75% of the time, and angles of less than 5* happening about 50% of the time. So if you simplify and only look at what happens at 10* or less, the Enve 3.4 set is slightly less than 12* faster over the course of our 40k TT.

To use a Velocity A23 as a stand-in for the 22mm Kinlin (we have data on the A23 but not the Kinlin 22), the greater drag exhibited by the A23 at low angles of yaw means that the difference between the 22mm deep Kinlin 22 and the 28mm deep XC279 is more than the difference between the Kinlin XC279 and a Zipp Firecrest 404.

So of course it depends what one defines as "aero," but if you use currently accepted yaw angle distributions, as measured by Bontrager and Flo (even in windy, wide open locations like Kona, where they both tested), then the difference between a very shallow rim like an A23 and a deeper and well-shaped alloy rim is greater than the difference between the deeper and well-shaped alloy rim and a deep, aerodynamically oriented wheel.

Multebear
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

So what you are saying is, aero deep section carbon rims are generally more aero than shallower aero alloy rims, but not as much as most people would think??

nemeseri
Posts: 640
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:40 pm

by nemeseri

I'd simply buy a set of Shimano C24 from the UK. Strong, reliable and light, but nothing fancy. I look at them as a baseline and compare wheelsets to them. You can pick up the C24 WH-9000 for $756 OR you can go with the newer R9100 for $999 from merlin cycles. Both sets are outstanding and it's very hard to get anything better for the money.

I second the opinion of Multbear on aero & boyd. At your price point I wouldn't get distracted by aero gains. Just focus on weight, price and reliability.

Both the Boyd Altamont Lite and the aforementioned shimano c24 would be a great choice.

NovemberDave
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by NovemberDave

Multebear wrote:So what you are saying is, aero deep section carbon rims are generally more aero than shallower aero alloy rims, but not as much as most people would think??


With a few caveats, yes, close enough.

Shape counts, so a well shaped 32mm deep wheel could be better than a less well shaped 46 (I believe that Specialized says their new 32s are better than their just-previous 46s, in fact), and material has nothing to do with it. That hypothetical 32mm wheel could be made out of carbon or aluminum or bronze or wood and it wouldn't affect aerodynamics. Obviously it affects weight.

Zipp claimed that a set of FC 808s save 96 seconds in the 40k TT standard versus a "benchmark alloy wheel set" (which is code for "the slowest wheel set we could possibly find"), while a 101 saved 42 seconds against the same benchmark.http://www.zipp.com/_media/pdfs/support/zipp_aero_edge_flyer_11.pdf It is known that Zipp generally puts a high value on what wheels do at 10* yaw. The chart in the link shows that the deeper wheels really start to distinguish themselves at about 10*. As I said before, there is ample data showing that real world conditions strongly favor much lower yaw angles. Well shaped but shallower wheels tend to do well relative to deeper wheels at low yaw, but box section and very shallow wheels do poorly even at low yaw. So the difference between a good mid-depth and a very aerodynamically oriented wheel is less than the difference between a "benchmark alloy wheel set" and that good mid-depth set.

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Asteroid
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:43 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

by Asteroid

I second the C24. 12k miles and never need truing. Smacked some serious potholes and stones along the way. Bought my brother a set (as a gift for his 60th) from Radial Cycles in the UK for around $700. Super easy to service, too, at 4k intervals. The cones, races, and balls show virtually zero wear.

nemeseri wrote:I'd simply buy a set of Shimano C24 from the UK. Strong, reliable and light, but nothing fancy. I look at them as a baseline and compare wheelsets to them. You can pick up the C24 WH-9000 for $756 OR you can go with the newer R9100 for $999 from merlin cycles. Both sets are outstanding and it's very hard to get anything better for the money.

I second the opinion of Multbear on aero & boyd. At your price point I wouldn't get distracted by aero gains. Just focus on weight, price and reliability.

Both the Boyd Altamont Lite and the aforementioned shimano c24 would be a great choice.
Oldbie

AJS914
Posts: 1903
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

NovemberDave wrote:With a few caveats, yes, close enough.


So basically, nobody but a top pro needs to spend thousands on a set of carbon wheels because the 12 seconds over a 40k TT at 30mph is practically meaningless for the vast majority of riders - unless you are maybe Peter Sagan nipping Mark Cavendish on the line.

by Weenie


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