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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:42 pm 
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Posts: 4424
Location: Natovi Landing
Marin wrote:

Biggest benefit on the bike will be aero handlebars BTW.


I don't buy that - and yes I've seen the data FWIW

Assume you're taking here about the component/part that will have the biggest benefit
rather than position?

We can't therefore include narrower bars because that is the change in position benefit

I don't believe that flat handlebar tops and internal routing in the bars is better than anything else - because of the fact that the air still has to hit the person behind the bars.

Much more testing on bars is needed tbh

All that said, I've bought two sets of aero bars (almost typed "aero bras" there - don't have any of those, but it's an underexploited niche for sure)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Posts: 1109
Location: Loveland, CO
wacomme wrote:
BTW- do you use latex tubes in your Bora's?


Absolutely not! I run Conti Supersonics which give me some benefit of reduced rolling resistance without all of the issues with latex. The issue with latex is on ALL clincher rims whether the rim is aluminum or carbon. This is why Conti doesn't sell a latex tube but they use latex tubes in their tubular tires. Please read the following article.

https://enve.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204228845-Use-of-Latex-Tubes-in-ENVE-Clincher-Wheels

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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:43 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 7:37 pm
Posts: 87
Yes. Interesting info on latex tubes. And I've read other articles too. However, I generally run latex tubes in all of my clincher alloy wheels.

I did have one incident last year. I had a front wheel blowout coming down a steep hill. I managed to stop without crashing (I was coming to a stop), but the rim rolled on bare pavement damaging the rim. What was the cause of the blowout? Who knows? Latex?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:00 pm 
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Posts: 803
sawyer wrote:

I don't believe that flat handlebar tops and internal routing in the bars is better than anything else - because of the fact that the air still has to hit the person behind the bars.



I find that the biggest savings are wheels and frame. But handlebar saves around 5 watts, and it all adds up. Doesn't matter if the air passes the rider after it passes the handlebars. It still needs to pass two obstacles. And both can slow the rider/bike down, it's just a matter of how much it slow the rider/bike down.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:04 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm
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pdlpsher1 wrote:

Absolutely not! I run Conti Supersonics which give me some benefit of reduced rolling resistance without all of the issues with latex. The issue with latex is on ALL clincher rims whether the rim is aluminum or carbon. This is why Conti doesn't sell a latex tube but they use latex tubes in their tubular tires. Please read the following article.



I read the article, but I don't see the problem. Latex tubes save around 3-5 watts on each wheel in rolling resistance. That is a significant saving. And for racing with clinchers, I'd say latex tubes are must haves. Not sure I get your point? Maybe I just didn't understand it...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 pm
Posts: 4424
Location: Natovi Landing
Multebear wrote:
sawyer wrote:

I don't believe that flat handlebar tops and internal routing in the bars is better than anything else - because of the fact that the air still has to hit the person behind the bars.



I find that the biggest savings are wheels and frame. But handlebar saves around 5 watts, and it all adds up. Doesn't matter if the air passes the rider after it passes the handlebars. It still needs to pass two obstacles. And both can slow the rider/bike down, it's just a matter of how much it slow the rider/bike down.


Hi - I suspect if you could do sufficiently high resolution testing you'd find it would matter ... with an aero bar cleaner air hitting the rider faster and therefore creating more drag on the rider, but less on the bars ...

That's a hypothesis anyway ... more testing needed

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:05 pm 
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Posts: 582
Multebear wrote:
I read the article, but I don't see the problem. Latex tubes save around 3-5 watts on each wheel in rolling resistance. That is a significant saving. And for racing with clinchers, I'd say latex tubes are must haves. Not sure I get your point? Maybe I just didn't understand it...


3-5 watts per wheel? That would be a HUGE difference.

According to this test it seems it's more like 0.7-1 W / tire compared to a not that light butyl tube. With supersonics the difference is probably even lower.
http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com ... s-clincher


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
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Location: Loveland, CO
Multebear wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:

Absolutely not! I run Conti Supersonics which give me some benefit of reduced rolling resistance without all of the issues with latex. The issue with latex is on ALL clincher rims whether the rim is aluminum or carbon. This is why Conti doesn't sell a latex tube but they use latex tubes in their tubular tires. Please read the following article.



I read the article, but I don't see the problem. Latex tubes save around 3-5 watts on each wheel in rolling resistance. That is a significant saving. And for racing with clinchers, I'd say latex tubes are must haves. Not sure I get your point? Maybe I just didn't understand it...


When I ran latex tubes on aluminum clincher rims I had several spontaneous blowouts (holes several inches long) with no apparent cause. Heat wasn't an issue. I know people on this forum point all latex issues to the user. I know I installed the tubes correctly so I can rule user error out. Using the same installation method on butyl I never had the same issue. So I've stopped using latex tubes. Bottom lines is latex tubes don't work well when the surface surrounding the tube is irregular. Tubular tires are uniform and hence latex tube is safe in tubular tires.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:58 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 3228
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
I did not get spontanous punctures when i used latex tubes in mh carbon clincher or alloy wheels. They worked just fine. Some of what i read is cya from wheel manufacturers.

I race on tubeless now. These tyres roll as well tubs with latex tubes.

Good clothing, a helmet and good position will be more than aero wheels but dont be fooled by an earlier statement that said you want shaalower wheels tk steer properly. My 500mm deep wheels give me no steering issues when used in windy races.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:17 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:08 pm
Posts: 177
Also, I have aero handle bars on my road bike but the reason is that they allow me to comfortably ride in the "invisible aero bar" position, which saves mucho watts. Of course, I will only get into that position in a solo break or otherwise a situation where I am not compromising my or others safety.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:50 am 
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Posts: 803
pdlpsher1 wrote:

When I ran latex tubes on aluminum clincher rims I had several spontaneous blowouts (holes several inches long) with no apparent cause. Heat wasn't an issue. I know people on this forum point all latex issues to the user. I know I installed the tubes correctly so I can rule user error out. Using the same installation method on butyl I never had the same issue. So I've stopped using latex tubes. Bottom lines is latex tubes don't work well when the surface surrounding the tube is irregular. Tubular tires are uniform and hence latex tube is safe in tubular tires.



Trust me, issues ARE user related. I had the same problem with spontaneous blowouts - sometimes even in the middle of the night while sleeping, several times the holes were several inches long as well. That was until a friend showed me how to install them proporly. And no, I've never had the same issues with butyl tubes. After the instructions from my friend, I've never had any issues at all whatsoever with latex tubes. Both my two latex clincher wheelsets and my three alloy clincher wheelsets are doing great with latex tubes now.

And just to make it clear, you don't use the same installation method as with butyl tubes. If you do that, you're likely to have blowouts. Butyl tubes will handle much more abuse and negligence, latex tubes wont. It's hard for me to explain the correct way in english, since english isn't my native language.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:56 am 
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Posts: 803
sawyer wrote:

Hi - I suspect if you could do sufficiently high resolution testing you'd find it would matter ... with an aero bar cleaner air hitting the rider faster and therefore creating more drag on the rider, but less on the bars ...

That's a hypothesis anyway ... more testing needed


True, it is a hypothesis, and I'm pretty sure it's wrong :wink:

But let's see, if someone will be able to clear it out with hard numbers. No need to discuss it further without hard evidence.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:05 am 
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Posts: 803
nemeseri wrote:
Multebear wrote:
I read the article, but I don't see the problem. Latex tubes save around 3-5 watts on each wheel in rolling resistance. That is a significant saving. And for racing with clinchers, I'd say latex tubes are must haves. Not sure I get your point? Maybe I just didn't understand it...


3-5 watts per wheel? That would be a HUGE difference.

According to this test it seems it's more like 0.7-1 W / tire compared to a not that light butyl tube. With supersonics the difference is probably even lower.
http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com ... s-clincher


Sorry, 3-5 watts between both wheels, not just one. And that's what is says in your link, which is the exact same link I looked at some time ago, I just didn't remember the numbers correctly. I ride with around 100 psi in both tires, according to your link, that will save me 1.7 watts pr wheel = 3.4 watts in total compared to a standard butyl tube. If I was running 60 psi in bot tires, that would be 2.4 watts pr tire = 4.8 watts in total.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:19 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Posts: 2427
Location: Vienna Austria
Surprisingly large savings from the aero bars, but I tend to believe Tour here. Last sentence is the killer though!


Image


Last edited by Marin on Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:22 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Posts: 2427
Location: Vienna Austria
pdlpsher1 wrote:
blowouts (holes several inches long)



This happens when the tube gets caught under the bead. The blowout will happen later, hours or even days. It's crucial to check that the lightly inflated tube can't be seen under the beads after installing the tire.


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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:22 am 


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