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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:32 pm 
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Calnago wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:
One has to keep in mind that the current crop of 23mm tires are really 25mm wide and would be labeled as 25mm a few years ago. The newer 25mm tires are really 28mm wide. So going back to a 23mm doesn't really say much about whether wider is good or bad.

I don't think that's true at all. The reason they measure out wider these days is because they are being mounted on wider rims. A 23mm tire will measure larger on a wider rim than it will on a narrower one (talking about clinchers only here, as tubulars are contained in their own casing and rim width doesn't affect them the same way). If you really want to see how big a 25mm clincher can get, just mount it on a new ENVE front rim. It won't clear a lot of road forks these days. The thing is, while there are variations between manufacturers I think the sizing is still based on the tires being mounted on "normal" rim with a 15mm internal width. Mount them in bigger rims and they expand accordingly.


Yes, clearance is becoming an issue across all bike manufactures and they are slowing the trend of wide rim. Caliper brake clearance is another issue. Envy made this http://enve.com/products/ses-4-5-ar specifically for disc.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:32 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:46 pm 
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The mountainfication of road bikes marches on... I hate it. Anything wider than 25mm on a nice road bike makes it not a nice road bike anymore. So much depends on the roads you ride on, and your own weight, so choose accordingly. I think a lot of the superlightweight guys are getting duped into thinking they need wider tires and wheels, when in fact they are just fine with the way they are. In fact, I like 25's on a road bike, but I'm 200lbs and the roads I ride are nice and relatively smooth for the most part. Now that I'm using 25's, I think "ok, so this is what it must feel like for a 150lb guy on his road bike. Firm and stable. Anything wider than 25mm in my view starts to lose some of those nice firm handling characteristics and they can start feeling mushy. I have 32's on my touring bike, and I mean for fully loaded touring where my bike and gear weigh over 90lbs before I even get on it. I tried bigger (37's) and didn't like the feel. Too much like a mountain bike. The whole thing is getting ridiculous. If you are happy with 23's and you don't feel like they're unstable underneath you, then there really is no reason to switch in my opinion, especially if it means forcing you to buy a new bike because your new tires won't fit. Of course, that's where it's all heading, and the manufacturers are loving it.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:04 pm 
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I totally agree with your statement "The mountainfication of road bikes marches on..."
It all comes down to your level of sensitivity. Some can ride wood bikes on 21mm tires without complains while others ride carbon endurance bikes on 30mm tires and still look for ways to improve comfort.
I consider myself sensitive to any minor modification and my 25mm GP 4000S measured at 28mm don't provide enough comfort for me for training rides.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:13 pm 
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i have 23's on my two road bikes. on my ti bike 32's. works great on gravel or poor pavement. i disagree that one can interchange a 32 mm bike and a 23 mm bike and not notice it. simply doesn't feel as responsive or agile to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:21 pm 
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A solid 2 hrs of reading that could be very educational for most here.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:10 am 
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sawyer wrote:
Asteroid wrote:
My understanding is that track riders use 23 or smaller tires at high pressures.
Do they know something we don't know?

sufferfest69 wrote:
It doesn't matter how fast a tire "feels"

The reality is that from multiple testing a wider tire at lower psi is faster. Period.


They can ride very high pressures because the track surface is so smooth of course

And in those circumstances it makes sense to go for the lightest and most aero set up possible consistent with the rider's handling/grip preferences and the range of wheel width options. So it's not likely they've been on 17mm tyres, but 21mm for example on a narrow-ish rim at 150psi might well be a very fast set up for them in a way it wouldn't be on the road


Seems like a contradiction to me. Either a larger tire has less rolling resistance (and hence faster) or it's not. To say nothing of tire pressure.
On my SoCal ride yesterday, I reflected back on the road surface over the 40-miler. Probably less than 1% I'd consider anything but smooth as silk. Doesn't seem like a good enough reason to ride anything larger than 23's.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:58 am 
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Posts: 148
Calnago wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:
One has to keep in mind that the current crop of 23mm tires are really 25mm wide and would be labeled as 25mm a few years ago. The newer 25mm tires are really 28mm wide. So going back to a 23mm doesn't really say much about whether wider is good or bad.

I don't think that's true at all. The reason they measure out wider these days is because they are being mounted on wider rims. A 23mm tire will measure larger on a wider rim than it will on a narrower one (talking about clinchers only here, as tubulars are contained in their own casing and rim width doesn't affect them the same way). If you really want to see how big a 25mm clincher can get, just mount it on a new ENVE front rim. It won't clear a lot of road forks these days. The thing is, while there are variations between manufacturers I think the sizing is still based on the tires being mounted on "normal" rim with a 15mm internal width. Mount them in bigger rims and they expand accordingly.

It's that, but not only that because some manufacturers have indeed sized up. Conti said long ago that the 23mm 4000s is a 24mm tire and the 25 a 26, but they didn't want to sell them like that as the format is so unusal. Now that the former Conti tire designers work for Specialized, they sell 24mm and 26mm tires.

Also, the new Vittoria tires are extremely wide. I ride the Corsa G+ 23mm on 15C rims and they come out exactly 25mm wide which is as much as my SuperSix frame can clear.

Veloflex Master/Corsa on the other hand are exactly true to size on 15C rims in my experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:06 am 
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Posts: 245
Asteroid wrote:
sawyer wrote:
Asteroid wrote:
My understanding is that track riders use 23 or smaller tires at high pressures.
Do they know something we don't know?


They can ride very high pressures because the track surface is so smooth of course

And in those circumstances it makes sense to go for the lightest and most aero set up possible consistent with the rider's handling/grip preferences and the range of wheel width options. So it's not likely they've been on 17mm tyres, but 21mm for example on a narrow-ish rim at 150psi might well be a very fast set up for them in a way it wouldn't be on the road


Seems like a contradiction to me. Either a larger tire has less rolling resistance (and hence faster) or it's not. To say nothing of tire pressure.

Lets split between deforming loss (loss from tire deforming when contact with the road) and suspension loss (loss from tire is too stiff thus when you hit uneven surface, it lift your whole bike up and energy are loss).

Suspension loss are real and more meaningful than most people think, even smooth tarmac still has some texture in it which is like a tiny hill that tires have to cross up and down. For this, lower pressure tire can comply with the surface better. So wider (and lower pressure) is better.

Rolling resistant, however. is harder to define. Some will only count for tire deformation loss (actual force that resist your rolling) that can measure on the roller but some also include suspension loss (energy wasted to lift your bike up also mean you are slower.) but let assume that they are part of the rolling resistant.

Higher pressure tire are stiffer and deform less, so they loss less energy in deforming less. (but more in the suspension loss). Generally suspension loss are greater than tire deform loss in average to bad road thus wider tire and lower psi are faster.

Indoor track are super duper smooth thus we can negate suspension loss. Then any tires with very high psi will have low deformation loss but the narrower one is more aero and weight less.


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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:42 pm 
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Posts: 11
Track riding is the fastest surface you can go on. Higher pressure and thin tyre would go faster on this surface.

If you go on rougher surface you will go slower no matter what tyre you will be using. Wider tyre will make you go "less" slower.

Other factor are weight of rider , aerodynamic and speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:44 pm 
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Sorry not speed but tyre pressure.


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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:05 am 
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The elasticity of a high tpi is also a plus on real conditions (actual tarmac that is).
IME a high quality, high tpi 25mm tire is the golden standard.

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 Post subject: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:29 am 
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kgt wrote:
The elasticity of a high tpi is also a plus on real conditions (actual tarmac that is).
IME a high quality, high tpi 25mm tire is the golden standard.


Is there a high tpi (300+) tire that is less prone to punctures and non-tubular? Let's exclude S-Works Turbo Cotton and Vittoria Corsa G+ Graphene.


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Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:10 am 
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Location: Loveland, CO
mpulsiv wrote:
kgt wrote:
The elasticity of a high tpi is also a plus on real conditions (actual tarmac that is).
IME a high quality, high tpi 25mm tire is the golden standard.


Is there a high tpi (300+) tire that is less prone to punctures and non-tubular? Let's exclude S-Works Turbo Cotton and Vittoria Corsa G+ Graphene.


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Here are some examples.







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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:14 am 
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Posts: 971
pdlpsher1 wrote:
mpulsiv wrote:
kgt wrote:
The elasticity of a high tpi is also a plus on real conditions (actual tarmac that is).
IME a high quality, high tpi 25mm tire is the golden standard.


Is there a high tpi (300+) tire that is less prone to punctures and non-tubular? Let's exclude S-Works Turbo Cotton and Vittoria Corsa G+ Graphene.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Here are some examples.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You posted something blank after "Here are some examples."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

:nospamhere:


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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:58 am 
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Posts: 1102
Location: Loveland, CO
mpulsiv wrote:
You posted something blank after "Here are some examples."


I was being facetious :D I don't know of any high TIP cotton casing tire with excellent puncture resistance.


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 Post subject: Re: Back to 23mm
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:58 am 


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