Which one is faster? Tubular vs clincher tire question.

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xena
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by xena

Bogan wrote:As I said lots of people trying to convince others that they are wrong.


Or perhaps some just have a sense of humour = :lol: You did see :lol:

That's your problem right there.
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Alumen
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by Alumen

It's even and depends much on the brand too...

Suppose that you have a comparable clincher or tube in terms of speed, then it is more about the specific handling and characteristics of the respective tire that counts for me. Regardless of the mounting system...
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xena
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by xena

bm0p700f wrote:Ah xena I was not aware you had indoor tarmac track to test you claim on. Obviously you do. Care to share your data. Oh sorry you dont it is jut your opinion. I really could not care if clinchers are quicker or not they are far too puncture prone for me and nothing slows you down like a puncture. tubs and the tubeless tyres I use are far better in this regard.

The rolling resistance difference between the corsa G+ clincher and the tubular tyre is so small (I dont what it is or which is lower) that it wont make any difference. People dont win or loose an event because they went for a Corsa clincher or tubular. They win or loos because the position is optimised, they are on form, everything just fall into place.....

Xena seems to think otherwise. I would just like to not get caught in traffic jams on the way to a race so I actually make it to the start line.


I never said I had Indoor tarmac track . Do you? I have a wind tunnel :lol:
I never said anything about positon , you did so don't claim I did and put words in my mouth. Talk Facts don't make them up or just give your view without making up things I never said ...OK?
We are talking about speed which is quicker . Its not an opinion it seems to hold up here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ovYHQ35-5o
and here
http://www.mensjournal.com/gear/outdoor ... r-20140509

and here
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=wh ... ORM=VRDGAR

Don't get all stroppy and make presumptions and petty remarks. Your wrong full stop. They are faster, may not be everyone's choice, may not have some of the properties of Tubs but that's not the question is it? They are quicker.
Personally I don't see the point of buying a set of super light tubs then have to carry a 250grm tyre in my back packet. It just does not add up financially or practically for everyday riding/training.
I have very light clinchers under 1200grms. That is my opinion and you are welcome to disagree , no issues there , cheers.
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

nice to know I am wrong of course in the real world there are so many factors that affect pace whether I am on tubeless tyres or tubs is not really a factor. I dont even use clinchers any more had to keep stopping when they hissed.

I also own some very light light clincher wheels but I have lighter tubular wheels You are entiled to your opinions of course Xena but just because you dont see the point does not mean there is not point for other. Tubs generally puncture less often then clinchers. I carry one tub in my back pocket and a can of pit stop. If I am on a very long ride I may carry two tubs in a saddle bag. When I rode with clinchers I took 3 or 4 tubes as I needed them too often. I did not do 100+ mile rides with clinchers as I would have had to carry a spare tyre and about 4 tubes. So actually I have less in my back pocket riding with tubs than I do with tubed clinchers. With tubeless I have stopped carrying a tube as they dont let me down. Also given the conti tubs often have sealant inside they actually sort themselves out if they puncture.

I can ride a gator skin tub and enjoy the ride (in winter) an know I probably wont need the spare. I cannot really enjoy the ride so much with a gator skin clincher the last time I used them oh my they where so uncomfortable and I know I will probably need a spare tube at some point. Winters coming gator skin tubs get a bit of use then on sundays. Vittoria corsa clinchers are good but puncture in the wet, GP400sII puncture, 4 seasons puncture alot, Michelins would not last 5 miles for me, Schwable marathon are just too heavy and uncomfotable, Schwable road tyres in general I do not like much...... So you see been down the clincher route and well flint it cuts through everything and round here I ride on roads covered in tiny sharp knives.

So yes I am obviously wrong or maybe the fasted tyre is the one that gets you round without stopping. That will depend on where you ride and the condtions you train and race in.

sungod
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by sungod

xena wrote:... Its not an opinion it seems to hold up here ...


those three links are completely science-free, i.e. they are no more than opinion, but it appears that as it's an opinion your prefer, you reference it as evidence to support your position

going for a ride and making a video to draw hits for someone's channel is not evidence, it's a commercial exercise
a puff piece for someone's book is not evidence, it's a commercial exercise

to be clear, i don't care which is faster, i just dislike nonsense being claimed as scientific fact

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by kgt

sungod wrote:i don't care which is faster, i just dislike nonsense being claimed as scientific fact

quote of the day

mattr
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by mattr

And i find it hard to take someone seriously when they run 160/180psi on the road. WTAF.

sawyer
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by sawyer

Stalkan wrote:Really? I guess I have been unsafe for most of the last 6 years and who knows how many thousands of miles trained and raced. FWIW, I have had less flats on clinchers mounted with latex tubes (bontrager xxx) than any type of butyl tube that i ran in the ~10 years before I switched to latex. Anecdotal, I know, but you're statement is a bit out there. Care to elaborate some?


Its an open system with a hugely elastic tube of inconsistent quality that's dying to get out

Read what the experts who make a living from wheels have to say

Yea you've been lucky so far but others less so.

Clinchers + latex + mountains = BANG!!
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

mbrider
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by mbrider

I have found that latex tubes are superior in every way minus one. They are not as durable as butyl. It is true that latex loses air over a period of time - I would say anywhere from 12 - 24 hours. But I pump my tires before every ride, so its not an issue for me. I use Vredstein latex tubes, and they do seem to have a shelf life of about 1 year or so. Butyl will last until you get a flat basically.
It would be nice if the latex tubes would last a little longer, but I am willing to spend the extra money to get the benefits. They are faster rolling, safer, and much much more comfortable.
I personally have not experienced a blow out with latex tubes. I am not sure exactly how to explain what the properties are with latex, but any flat I have had with them (including pinch or snake bite) they lose air slowly, allowing me to slow safely.
The most dangerous flat without doubt is a sudden blow out (Ive only experienced this with butyl tube). Rim straight onto tarmac has led to many scary moments or crash.

If you look at the RR data, it is clear that latex is faster than butyl, no matter clincher or tub.
Clinchers are slightly faster than tubs when comparing apples to apples (though that is a difficult challenge - clinchers "expand" on wider rims, tubs are the same size no matter what). And we all know by now that wider is faster, with regard to RR.
With aero, I would guess you can make it an even comparison. That is to say, if you put the right sized tub on a wide tub aero rim, then you would have a similar result as with clinchers.
Without question, tubs are lighter. You can get the clincher tire / latex tube to be very close in weight, when compared to the same sized tubular. But when you compare the same sized rim, tubulars will always be lighter.
Tubulars when glued properly are by far the safest set up there is. Only caveat would be carbon tubs in the rain.

Those that are afraid to ride with tubs due to being difficult to repair, couldnt be more wrong. They are by far easier to do a roadside fix. Only if the tire is completely cut up, would you not be able to repair. And that would be the same with a clincher. Then you would need to either boot the tire or replace with another clincher. So you are essentially the same as carrying a spare tub. If your flat is not as bad as that - you just simply remove valve core, add sealant, re-install valve core and inflate. If the hole is bigger, then just use super glue to glue a glueless patch to the outside of the tub. No removing wheels. No undoing brakes. No greasy, gritty dirty hands.

I am down to just one pair of clincher wheels now. They simply are better in the rain. I hate riding in the rain, so that is why I have one set of clinchers. If I lived in an area where I didnt ride / train in the mountains, with some tricky decents, then I would probably only ride tubs.

Modern tubs are much much better at flat resistance. I have been running the new Zipp tubulars and am extremely pleased with them. They are my go to now. 27 rear and the 24 matches very well to the new wide profile front tubular rims. No flats. Roll really nicely. With my front zipp 404 and reynolds assault slg, they match perfectly for aero. While the 27 rear is very comfortable and fast rolling. Both are nice and grippy.

If you like to pump the shit out of your tires, then this whole thread is useless to you. Doesnt matter what you ride. Again if you actually study the RR results, you will see that higher PSI leads to lower RR. But that is a bit misleading. The reason that fatter tires are faster, is because they can absorb and disperse the energy of road imperfections, as long as they are at the right PSI.

If you are going to go tubular, make sure you figure out what is the right width, psi and depth of wheel for yourself / your riding conditions. If you just ride straight through shit in the road, then I would say dont go tub. You need to be the kind of rider that looks where they ride. True you cant always avoid stuff (group rides etc.). If you dont "scrub" your tires after going through debris, then you also might want to skip tubs.

my $.02

mbrider
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by mbrider

@sawyer - are you talking about using latex tubes with carbon clinchers?

Anyone who uses latex tubes with carbon clinchers (dont dissipate heat at all) is a idiot.

In my opinion, carbon clinchers are the most idiotic modern cycling "invention" ever.

xena
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by xena

bm0p700f wrote:nice to know I am wrong of course in the real world there are so many factors that affect pace whether I am on tubeless tyres or tubs is not really a factor. I dont even use clinchers any more had to keep stopping when they hissed.

I also own some very light light clincher wheels but I have lighter tubular wheels You are entiled to your opinions of course Xena but just because you dont see the point does not mean there is not point for other. Tubs generally puncture less often then clinchers. I carry one tub in my back pocket and a can of pit stop. If I am on a very long ride I may carry two tubs in a saddle bag. When I rode with clinchers I took 3 or 4 tubes as I needed them too often. I did not do 100+ mile rides with clinchers as I would have had to carry a spare tyre and about 4 tubes. So actually I have less in my back pocket riding with tubs than I do with tubed clinchers. With tubeless I have stopped carrying a tube as they dont let me down. Also given the conti tubs often have sealant inside they actually sort themselves out if they puncture.

I can ride a gator skin tub and enjoy the ride (in winter) an know I probably wont need the spare. I cannot really enjoy the ride so much with a gator skin clincher the last time I used them oh my they where so uncomfortable and I know I will probably need a spare tube at some point. Winters coming gator skin tubs get a bit of use then on sundays. Vittoria corsa clinchers are good but puncture in the wet, GP400sII puncture, 4 seasons puncture alot, Michelins would not last 5 miles for me, Schwable marathon are just too heavy and uncomfotable, Schwable road tyres in general I do not like much...... So you see been down the clincher route and well flint it cuts through everything and round here I ride on roads covered in tiny sharp knives.

So yes I am obviously wrong or maybe the fasted tyre is the one that gets you round without stopping. That will depend on where you ride and the condtions you train and race in.


All I said is that from the tests done they are the faster. Its hear or there in real terms the difference, maybe for Tony Martin the benefit is good maybe for Fab it is not. I have rode tubs and they feel mighty good no doubt about it. I am not saying you are wrong opting for tubs that is your choice and I do understand why you and pro cyclists use them. If I lived in non urban environment I would opt for tubs for the reasons you and others give. Clinchers though have come a long way and feel really good .
Like I said a light inner tube makes a huge difference to a clincher tyre. They feel way better and roll a lot smoother and faster. Clinchers obviously do puncture but I use veloflex and the ones on my Guru have punctured once in one year [ rose thorn I think] [ I will probably get a flat tomorrow ,ha ha]
I am not disagreeing with you go back and look at my post . The point about faffing around etc was a joke I put a laughing face at the end.
Seriously stop attacking me for no reason. You have your opinion and I agree with it.
My points are the benefits for me as someone who climbs round the hill's of north London daily for 2 /3 hours. The urban streets are full of debris ideal for punctures so for me to deal with a tub is not worth the hassle and I would only use them on superlight wheels that would be well over £2000 and I'm not riding £2000 wheels around London's urban streets one pot hole etc and boom there goes £2000.
So I opt for superlight hand built clinchers that do the job great and don't cost anywhere near £2000 .
I hope that's explained things better .
I'm not a hater and if you took the time to read my post and give me the benefit of what and why I am saying what I'm saying then there would be no need to attack me.

Cheers Ray J
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Mattr i would not run those high pressures on any other tyre but it works on these narrow tubulars. Wider ones work much better at lower pressures. If you have not tried it how can you say it does not work. I have tried normal pressures 120 psi for these tubs and that works o.k. Lower pressures just dont feel right. Beside those are racing pressures for circuit races. The circuit i run these pressures for is smooth and lack many tight bends. For circuits with tight bends and a rougher surface i do drop pressures a bit.
I actually had a 22mm conti comp and a 22mm vittoria all weather tub for race that both punctured and sealed at 30 or 40 psi on the warm up. That was squirmy but i got round and finished in the bunch with no incidents. Those tubs performed best at 120 psi fof the 22mm vittoria on the front and about 130 psi rear for the comp 22mm tyre. I have a stadh of wider tubs, jyst wearing out the narrow ones.

I run my 25mm conti tubs at 90 to 100 psi and my paves at 80 to 90 psi. Higher pressures in these dont work as the lateral grip suffers so pressure is tyre and course dependent. I may happen to know what i am doing.

I am glad you agree you pick the tyre for roads you ride on. Hense the thread should be titled which us quicker tubs or clichers for tge roads the op rides on upon which we could have said toss a coin as no one can say for sure.
Last edited by bm0p700f on Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xena
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by xena

sungod wrote:
xena wrote:... Its not an opinion it seems to hold up here ...


those three links are completely science-free, i.e. they are no more than opinion, but it appears that as it's an opinion your prefer, you reference it as evidence to support your position

going for a ride and making a video to draw hits for someone's channel is not evidence, it's a commercial exercise
a puff piece for someone's book is not evidence, it's a commercial exercise

to be clear, i don't care which is faster, i just dislike nonsense being claimed as scientific fact


Your right its not a opinion its opinions. My point was simple , id seen these vids and the clinchers were faster. It may not be perfect. Maybe under different circumstances/factors maybe you could get a different result. I don't know I'm not a tyre expert. Apart from the 3 links which those involved agree that the clinchers were faster, from my own experience I think that clinchers feel a wee bit faster, just roll a bit quicker. I get your point but its being a bit pedantic to say the least. I do reference it to support my position why not , they all came to the same conclusion. If they had said the clinchers were slower I would have gone with that. Its pretty simple.
peace ya all
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xena
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by xena

bm0p700f wrote:Mattr i would not run those high pressures on any other tyre but it works on these narrow tubulars. Wider ones work much better at lower pressures. If you have not tried it how can you say it does not work. I have tried normal pressures 120 psi for these tubs and that works o.k. Lower pressures just dont feel right. Beside those are racing pressures for circuit races. I thought the grip in the tight bends would not be there but the bike just holds the track.

I run my 25mm conti tubs at 90 to 100 psi. Higher pressures in these dont work so pressure is tyre and course dependent. I may happen to know what i am doing.

The streets of london are clean xena although if i rode in london i might use the marathon plus tyre it may not be fast but i find traffic lights slow you down more.
I am glad you agree you pick the tyre for roads you ride on. Hense the thread should be titled which us quicker tubs or clichers for tge roads the op rides on upon which we could havd said toss a coin as no one can say for sure.


Its not litter. Its pot holes etc and a lot of the streets I ride are tree lined and you get a lot of twigs/ thorns debris etc in the road especially after a windy rainy day. The main roads are not so bad I tend to ride in the middle as much as possible. Your spot on about the title or what about where is the best place to ride your lightweights :thumbup:
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Come to country side then. Potholes, branches, twigs and lots of gravel if you venture of the main roads. There is debris everywhere. As i said the streets on london look clean to me which is why clinchers work for you.

Although essex and suffolk county council have made an effort recently with resurfacing chip and seal though. Its the thought that counts.

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