preview: Al33 kickstarter launch (new 33mm deep toroidal shaped aluminum rims (465gram) + wheels)

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NovemberDave
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by NovemberDave

ergott wrote:
LouisN wrote:Bring a 430-440g reliable tubular version, and you got me as a client... :beerchug:


I've talked to a few rim manufacturers. Unfortunately, the market for tubular rims is far smaller than clincher/tubelesss so most don't want to put in the development time, tooling, and order commitment if they can't recover their cost.

For now, you can get the Hed Belgium in tubular and it's pretty close to that weight.


HED has just discontinued their Belgium Black disc tubular, which is a crying shame. Super nice rim. We bought all we could when we heard about it.

Tubulars are even under the gun for cross these days. People just don't like dealing with them.

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ergott
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by ergott

Wow, that's a shame.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I love my tubulars and even though I'm old I didn't ride them until later in life. Now I only have one set of clinchers and I have a lot of wheels. Oh well, but yes. If you were to be a loyal WW forum reader you might think everyone with a high end bike is riding tubulars. And that's simply not the case. I ride with a lot of guys with really nice bikes but I think I'm the only one on tubulars. That's ok.
And Lewis, you mentioned in your post you'd like to see a tubular with a deeper channel to make it more "aero". Well, that may have the effect of creating a smoother rim/tire interface, but burying the round tubular profile half way into the rim bed also takes away from the very trait that people want tubulars, handling. That round profile allows it to move with the road in turns. If it was buried half way (for IMO a red herring aero effect) it would behave much more like a clincher than a tubular so what would be the point.
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LouisN
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by LouisN

The old school tubular rims channel is pretty flat.
IMO, it's mostly because a few years back, most rims were the same, approx. 18 mm wide. They were used for road (19-21mm tubs), cobbles (25-27mm tubs) , cross (30-35mm tubs), etc...and that was handy.

If you are a fine observer, you probably noticed the channels in carbon tubular rims are deeper than with those shallow old school rims. And that provides a better bond with tubulars, without ever sacrificing road feel or whatever. Performance is improved in all aspects.
I never wrote anything suggesting to sink the tub lower (where did you get the "half way" image anyways :? ) in there, just that a sensible brain can do the same with an alloy rim....

Louis :)

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svendsvin
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by svendsvin

Good luck with your project. Looks great.

Would it be possible to buy rims with custom paired spoking patterns (for example 10 x paired spoke holes 10mm apart) now or maybe later after the kickstarter.

So a single (or 2) custom rims.

dunMisk
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by dunMisk

I pledged for a wheelset, and have a question. What kind of bearings does your hubsset use? You provide info on the type of bearings and races, but not on the dimensions of the bearings (at least, I couldn't find it).

thanxs, very eager to put your set to the test.

bellebikes
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by bellebikes

svendsvin wrote:Good luck with your project. Looks great.

Would it be possible to buy rims with custom paired spoking patterns (for example 10 x paired spoke holes 10mm apart) now or maybe later after the kickstarter.

So a single (or 2) custom rims.


@svendsvin,

Should you really want that?, I admit, it looks cool. But the unsupported area is twice as big, And if 2 spoke holes are only 10-mm apart it causes more stress on the rim. In my opinion spokes equally divided over the rim will last the longest and is from an engeneering point of view the best solution.

If still interested, i would opt for 30mm apart and internal nipples. I think that should work fine, But again. It would be too expensive for me to test this first so i simply can not supply warranty on this specific setup. I would recommend equally divided spokes always.

dunMisk wrote:I pledged for a wheelset, and have a question. What kind of bearings does your hubsset use? You provide info on the type of bearings and races, but not on the dimensions of the bearings (at least, I couldn't find it).

thanxs, very eager to put your set to the test.


Dear Dunmisk,
For the last 2 years we used 6800 bearings in front and 6802 bearings in the rear wheel. When using high quality bearings with very hard steel this works fine and they last long. also easy to replace.

However the 2017 version which we will also use for our kickstarter wheels will upgrade to bigger bearings. Most likely 6900 in front and 6902 in the rear wheel. while keeping about the same weight (currently about 8 grams heavier/set). Currently the 2017 version is being tested by test riders, computer simulations and tested in test setups, to see if strength compares to our 2017 model. So far looking very good. But we will still do several test and real life punishment until the campaign ends to assure reliability.

Our last model did have a 0% failure rate, at the spokes or anywhere else and proved therefore extremely reliable and we want to be 100% sure our new model assures same reliability. Hubs will have the same looks.

NovemberDave wrote:
ergott wrote:
LouisN wrote:Bring a 430-440g reliable tubular version, and you got me as a client... :beerchug:


I've talked to a few rim manufacturers. Unfortunately, the market for tubular rims is far smaller than clincher/tubelesss so most don't want to put in the development time, tooling, and order commitment if they can't recover their cost.

For now, you can get the Hed Belgium in tubular and it's pretty close to that weight.


HED has just discontinued their Belgium Black disc tubular, which is a crying shame. Super nice rim. We bought all we could when we heard about it.

Tubulars are even under the gun for cross these days. People just don't like dealing with them.


Too bad, i did built a few wheels with these rims. As it is a very good option for tubeless alloy setup. However this might it make it interesting for our company, if we are the only option, the market might be bigger. Can't promise anything but will make it more likely for us to step in. Not until 2nd half of 2017 tough.

ergott wrote:
bellebikes wrote:Thank you guys.,
over 100% funded in 15 days.


Congratulations and best of luck with everything. :thumbup:

Looking forward to having the chance to build up some rims when they become available through a US dist.

Thanks, and hope to update on that very shortly. However kickstarter rims and wheels will be first in line for delivery.
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Rides: Bellezza Stelvio <5kg and Bellezza CorsaX!

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WMW
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by WMW

bellebikes wrote:Using internal nipples allowed us to drill holes 2mm offset and make the spoke angle bigger, resulting in more lateral stiffness, this was simply not possible with external nipples without making the rim heavier. This benefit alone made the use of internal nipples worthwile.

Image


Shimano tried that a long time ago with spokes that hooked into the side of the rim to really maximize this effect. It didn't work. No increase in lateral stiffness. But it served the marketing needs of having something "different" until reality interfered (they sucked). I'm thinking it must be the angle to the rim section's centroid that matters. Or something.

Image

I'm guessing you didn't actually measure the stiffness?

Should be a good rim if it holds up. Similar to Flo 30 but lighter. I'm skeptical of light rims though. Velocity and Pacenti have had problems recently, and don't forget the Stan's 340! You are using a special alloy which might help.

EDIT: Just took a look at your kickstarter page, and have a comment about your "equal tension technology". It's really just triplet lacing (inferior triplet IMO). This isn't new, and there are pros and cons. Typically hubs that are designed for triplet have extra NDS flange offset compared to traditional wheels. You end up with ~75% of the DS tension on the NDS, but you get a lot of lateral stiffness. What you've done is use more traditional hub spacing and big heavy spokes on the NDS to get back some lateral stiffness. You end up with the same tension on both sides, but the NDS spokes will still go slack first when you subject the wheel to vertical loads. Since the spokes are heavier, they have less stretch and will go slack way before the DS. It isn't optimal from a strength and weight standpoint. You would have been better off with normal triplet, with more flange offset and lighter NDS spokes.
formerly rruff...

bellebikes
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by bellebikes

bellebikes wrote:Shimano tried that a long time ago with spokes that hooked into the side of the rim to really maximize this effect. It didn't work. No increase in lateral stiffness. But it served the marketing needs of having something "different" until reality interfered (they sucked).


What shimano did there was also lengthen the spokes, which decreases lateral stiffness, apart from that i can think about some other design flaws of the wheel on the picture but that would be offtopic. So i can imagine in this situation it did not work.

By judging that this wheel is not stiff and therefore a bigger spoke angle caused by offset spokes is not working would be a little too easy.

With our wheels, just drilled 2mm offset criss-cross it is not extremely obvious, We use techniques to make the wheel better, if it offer marketing benefit that is a nice addition.
Also drilling offset takes more time in the machine and is more expensive for us, so it wouldn't be very smart to do it if it didn't get us results.

bellebikes wrote: I'm thinking it must be the angle to the rim section's centroid that matters. Or something.

There is a direct correlation between spoke angle and lateral stiffness, not the only factor involved tough.

Should be a good rim if it holds up. Similar to Flo 30 but lighter. I'm skeptical of light rims though. Velocity and Pacenti have had problems recently, and don't forget the Stan's 340! You are using a special alloy which might help.


I am aware with those problems, We had a serie of wheels with lightweight rims (does not seem correct for me to name the brand) which all had cracks parallel to the spoke holes. we had to replace the whole serie.

As you mentioned the alloy we use is much less prone to cracking. but also the wall thickness at the nipple bed is 2,15mm thick while some other brands go down to 1,8mm, Also the nipple bed is wider, So the forces will divide more evenly and over a larger section of the rim wall. Also computer software nowadays can simulate the spoke forces, which helped us finding the weak spots, which led to a more efficient design and decreasing the stress on certain sections of the rim.

bellebikes wrote:EDIT: Just took a look at your kickstarter page, and have a comment about your "equal tension technology". It's really just triplet lacing (inferior triplet IMO). This isn't new, and there are pros and cons. Typically hubs that are designed for triplet have extra NDS flange offset compared to traditional wheels. You end up with ~75% of the DS tension on the NDS, but you get a lot of lateral stiffness. What you've done is use more traditional hub spacing and big heavy spokes on the NDS to get back some lateral stiffness. You end up with the same tension on both sides, but the NDS spokes will still go slack first when you subject the wheel to vertical loads. Since the spokes are heavier, they have less stretch and will go slack way before the DS. It isn't optimal from a strength and weight standpoint. You would have been better off with normal triplet, with more flange offset and lighter NDS spokes.


Yes it is a triplet lacing pattern, where we use stiffer spokes at the drive side. But we also combine the 2mm offset drilling. which also helps to more equal spoke tension. you get an improved spoke angle at both sides, This also improves a more equal spoke tension while making it higher. a 2mm improvement at the drive side is in percentage more compared to the non drive side angle.

Our hubs are designed specifically for this lacing pattern, We used computer simulations in 3d software, test setups and real life experience to come to this result.

We did not experience the drive side spokes going slack on our wheels, Not when riding down a stair, not on the slow-motion video material on the paris-roubaix cobbles. We know this can be a problem on traditional laced wheels with a too low NDS tension. With tensions around 100KG NDS and around 110KG Drive side, spokes going slack at a vertical load was simply not an issue.

When it comes to weight, Yes it is about 16 gram's extra in the rear wheel. Something to overcome and well worth it. as it does provide extra stiffness to the wheel.
The equal tension technology (ET2) is how we call all the factors combined. So the 2:1 lacing, using different thickness spokes and the 2mm offset drilling. Also note that the thicker spokes are much less prone to damaging.

But we know many wheel-builders do prefer to use traditional lacing patterns or for example, external nipples. This setup works very well for us and has been proven on our carbon wheels, and proves very reliable when it comes to spoke failure, And the handling is very appreciated by our clients and test riders.

But we also sell seperate rims for almost any lacing pattern thinkable. We know a 24/28 spoke setup with traditional lacing can also make a very good wheel, and we see the value in wheel-builders builds for a specific rider.
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bellebikes
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by bellebikes

- EDIT: DOUBLE POST, PLEASE SEE POST BELOW
Last edited by bellebikes on Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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WMW
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by WMW

bellebikes wrote:Also drilling offset takes more time in the machine and is more expensive for us, so it wouldn't be very smart to do it if it didn't get us results.


You surely understand marketing better than that ;)

bellebikes wrote:There is a direct correlation between spoke angle and lateral stiffness, not the only factor involved tough.


I very much doubt it improves anything when you acheive this angle by attaching the spoke off the center of the rim. I haven't tested or modeled the effect (detailed FEM), but it doesn't sound like you have either...?

bellebikes wrote:As you mentioned the alloy we use is much less prone to cracking. but also the wall thickness at the nipple bed is 2,15mm thick while some other brands go down to 1,8mm, Also the nipple bed is wider, So the forces will divide more evenly and over a larger section of the rim wall. Also computer software nowadays can simulate the spoke forces, which helped us finding the weak spots, which led to a more efficient design and decreasing the stress on certain sections of the rim.


2.15mm nipple bed sounds good. I see you have a 9mm brake track which is nice, but not "weight saving". Compared to a Pacenti SL23 (~430g) you are adding weight in places, plus the taller sidewalls should result in ~50g more weight. Where did you acheive the weight savings? If it is in the sidewall thickness I'd expect a lot of dimpling. Aluminum alloys differ greatly in strength, but density and stiffness do not vary much at all. Do you have a cross sectional diagram which gives all the thicknesses?
formerly rruff...

kulivontot
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by kulivontot

"Hey can you just go ahead and post diagrams for your proprietary rim shape? Kthx"

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F45
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by F45

Considering this is kickstarter, I don't see why that is an unusual request. Certainly not unusual enough to warrant sarcasm.

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svendsvin
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by svendsvin

bellebikes wrote:
svendsvin wrote:... possibility of custom paired spoking patterns...


...It would be too expensive for me to test this first so i simply can not supply warranty on this specific setup. I would recommend equally divided spokes always.


Hi Thanks for your detailed answer. A clarifying question: Is that a No, you will not do it because of no warranty, extra tooling and trouble to make custom drillings (which I understand)

or
Yes, custom drillings would be possible but without any kind of warranty/at my own risk?

kulivontot
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by kulivontot

Because it's their IP?

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