Stiffest 50mm-60mm carbon clinchers? Bora? Zipp 404? Mavic? Enve?

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joepac
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:43 pm

by joepac

I thought Zipps have a reputation for being flexy?

by Weenie


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pdlpsher1
Posts: 4020
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Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

davidalone wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:
davidalone wrote:So saying shimano wheels are good because proteams ride them, is frankly, BS.


The OP asked a question "which wheel is the stiffest deep carbon clincher". My opinion is that Shimano wheels will meet his requirement in durability and functionality. And I gave a technical reason on why they are stiff. Regardless whether you like them or not I stand by my opinion that they are both durable and functional, and will meet the needs of the OP. And yes I do believe if the product is good enough for World Tour teams it's good enough for us.

Do you have any personal experiences with them to suggest Shimano wheels are not functional nor durable? Do you have something against Shimano? I own a set of Shimano wheels and I can say they are bullet proof.


If you read the FIRST FREAKING SENTENCE of my post you will notice I said Campy or Shimano wheels are good wheels and many people will ride them without complaint. I myself love campy wheels. I have used shimano wheels and they are generally good. not perfect, but good. My beef with shimano wheels (especially the C24 shallow rim ones) is they tend to use too few spokes and end up with unecessarily high spoke tensions. Not a deal breaker, and certainly they aren't the only wheel makers guilty of this. but something to bear in mind.

2:1 lacing has it's strengths and weaknesses. if you snap a spoke on a 2:1 laced wheel the tension differential is so high that you are most definitely not riding home. snap a spoke on a normal 2X or 3X laced wheel and it's still rideable, good enough to get you home. There is no perfect system.

MY point is that using Pro equipment as a point of reference is not relevant to the normal folk like you or me or the OP. If not, we'd all be riding tubulars and in extremely aggressive positions with bikes heavier than 6.8kg. Educating people about intelligent equipment choices is one of the points of this forum, and basing equipment choices on what the pros ride is not the smartest idea.

Get your panties out of a twist.


In this day and age where you could buy a Chinese-made carbon wheel online that has not gone through the same rigorous testing as Shimano wheels go through, yes, I stand by my statement that if it's good enough for a pro it's good enough for us from a durability and functionality standpoint :D

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kgt
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Location: Athens, Greece

by kgt

Clincher wheelsets and their torsional stiffness numbers from http://www.roadbike.de
Go tests> laufrader

Ritchey WCS Apex Carbon 4,2mm
DT Swiss RRC 46 6,1mm
Bontrager Aeolus 5 6,2mm
Reynolds Forty Six 8,1mm
Zipp 303 Firecrest 15,7 mm

These are 2012 models but the numbers are still relevant IMHO

Imaking20
Posts: 2260
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:19 am

by Imaking20

I perceive more lateral deflection with the 303FC than any other wheels I've ridden in the last few years. This is the primary reason I just sold a set of 2015 clinchers and went back to Reynolds 58.

Of the carbon wheels I've owned, I'd rank lateral stiffness (sprinting, climbing, etc) as follows:

Reynolds 58
MCCU
2013 Zipp 404 tubular
HED Stinger 6
Bontrager D3 5 clincher
Zipp 303 clincher

mimason
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Location: Florida

by mimason

RedRacer wrote:
Before you make a decision wait until June 29th to see if new wheels are part of the Dura Ace new product offering.


Good advice! I can sit on the fence for another three days :lol:



kgt wrote:LWs and Mavic CCU are the stiffest wheels by far. Corima MCC come close. Everything else is considerably less stiff.

But since you prefer a 'normal' wheelset Campagnolo Bora would be my first choise. Corima 47 mm s+ my second choise.


Thanks for the feedback. I would prefer to buy a wheelset with steel spokes and the CCUs are out because I want clinchers.

I know the new Bora 50s are stiff but with the low rear spoke count it is hard to wrap my head around them being the stiffest option. The do seem to have good rear hub geometry/spacing which would help.

The ZIPP 404 NSW is still on my radar. The 58mm depth must be stiff and this new model has two more rear spokes vs the old ones, plus improved hubs. The rear lacing is two cross which should be stiffer than the wheels that are radially laced on the NDS, right?


Since carbons spokes are out I think you should be looking at BO50s. I was skeptical before I purchased a set but they are very stiff. Granted, there is risk that a broken spoke will end the ride and be a costly repair but the spacing is so much wider than competitor hubs that they lend itself to a stout build and firm ride.

Let's see what Shimano brings to the table if at all...

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

Henryexige
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:03 pm

by Henryexige

I've tried Metron 55 clincher, Zipp 303 FC tubular, Easton EC90 Aero 55 tubular, Roval CLX 60 clincher and Roval CLX 60 tubular.
55mm seems to be the best all rounder, depends on terrain and how you ride.
Easton EC90 Aero 55 give the best all round performance including climbing. However I could not buy a pair of it and settled for CLX 60 tubular, which is very close to Aero 55 performance.

Noctiluxx
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Location: Southern California

by Noctiluxx

My Zipp 404 NSW's flex frequently under heavy power on my 2017 Giant TCR SL.
Last edited by Noctiluxx on Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bianchi Oltre XR4, De Rosa SK Pininfarina, Trek Madone SLR, Giant TCR Advanced SL, Cervelo R5 Disk, Giant Revolt

willmac
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:33 am

by willmac

There's a lot of chat here about stiffness of rims but that doesn't appear to be what your problem is. If rubbing is a concern then it's more relative to spoke angle/tension and flange height of the hub. A deep section rim will be stiff but not necessarily prevent rubbing. Enve and CK hubs work nicely for me. I'm 82 kgs and have an FTP of 300. Not massive numbers but probably pretty consistent for the average rider. I don't notice any rub with my wheels while climbing or sprinting and have my brake pads set so I have around 5mm from the rim. If you wanted to save a bit of cash, you could just opt to relace your zipp rims to some different hubs.

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ryanw
in the industry
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by ryanw

Normal 2016 Zipp 404's, no flex with a 100kg rider putting down over 1700w.
SL8 S-Works Project Black - 6.29kg
IG: RhinosWorkshop

dmulligan
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:16 pm

by dmulligan

2lo8 wrote:Doesn't directly answer your question, but have you read this?

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunkin ... _3449.html

All carbon rims are super stiff. That is the very reason they run at the brakes. Aluminum rims flex which is why they don't run at the brakes. Try this thought experiment: Take a stiff disk, maybe a plate or a CD, place it in a small ball, and see what happens when you press down on one side of the disk.

If only someone had posted an article that explains that in detail... Wait it was the first reply.

The problem the OP is having is because of the hub and spokes not because of the rims. Unless the OP is a clyde, he's not flexing even 35mm deep rims.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

grandantipathes
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:32 pm

by grandantipathes

I am a powerful competitive rider and have owned a few pairs:

shimano c50 tubular : very stiff laterally at the rear ( not too far from the mavic ccu )
mavic ccu : the laterally stiffest wheel at the rear I have ever seen.
zipp 404 clinchers : I was disappointed by zipp in general. The stiffness at the rear is only average ( poor if compared to the 2 above )
corima mcc + tubular : Still to test, but I expect it to be on par with the CCU.

Now, in terms of clinchers, there is a general trend per manufacturer in terms of how stiff their wheels are:

Shimano : Very Stiff
Zipp: Average
Mavic: Stiff
Fulcrum and Campa : Stiff

It's also very interesting how the wheel reviews are usually crap and never really tackle the stiffness issue. In 99% of the review they mention the wheel to be stiff or stiff enough which is a total nonsense.. There are huge differences between products. Big powerful riders are more prone to feeling the difference. Look at the TOUR magazine reviews, their wheel tests come with actual numbers rather than impressions.
Stay away from zipp in general.
I can't comment on ENVE.

grandantipathes
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Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:32 pm

by grandantipathes

ryanw wrote:Normal 2016 Zipp 404's, no flex with a 100kg rider putting down over 1700w.


Everything is relative. I used to think some of wheels I owned were stiff until I bought a pair of Mavic CCU..
Zipp 404 are below average in lateral stiffness at the rear. Your statement is a little surprising. I'm "only" 77 kgs and putting 1500 watts (peak), and noticed right away a huge difference between 2016 zipp 404 versus shimano c50 or mavic CCU..
If you get a chance, test the latter, you might be pleasantly surprised

grandantipathes
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:32 pm

by grandantipathes

Noctiluxx wrote:My Zipp 404 NSW's flex frequently under heavy power on my 2017 Giant TCR SL.


Yeah, I have the same experience.
It's obvious Zipp doesn't prioritize stiffness. It's odd because their wheels are not even light in that price range. It's all about aero with them I guess, and in that department, they are definitely good.

by Weenie


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grandantipathes
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:32 pm

by grandantipathes

joepac wrote:I thought Zipps have a reputation for being flexy?


Not just a reputation ;)
It's a shame, as their wheels are otherwise pretty good

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