Curve Cycling Wheels

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TheDarkInstall
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Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:44 am

by TheDarkInstall

AdamDeCurve wrote:Howdy all,

Adam from Curve Cycling.

Wow, hasn't this post gone crazy... thanks all for the comments, they give us great insight to see what people think of our brand. Ultimately it helps us understand how we can grow and develop our products, brand and messaging. The comments almost make us feel like celebrity :)

So to comment;

We have always been open about our "open mould" - especially because in forums like this, we know that we could not afford to lie about it.

It's pretty easy to see why we are compared to Far Sports, they have a strong online presence that ranks well on google and offer a very similar yet expanded range to what we do... sure, it annoys us that they exist, but so do many other similar agents, companies, websites and factories.

We get about 2-5 emails a week from agents and factories in Taiwan and China asking us to use their rims and wheels. They offer us products that look, on the surface, exactly like ours; DT Swiss, CX Ray 38mm or 50mm Rim. Whilst some are legitimate factories, many only claim so and are more or less agents selling products from "who knows where". We had to wade through all this stuff 5 years ago, but as we travelled over to Asia and tested our product back here in Oz, only then we could progress further and feel confident in bringing a good product to market.

Furthermore we have developed UCI approved rims - A significant investment for us, where our rims were independently tested and approved in Belgium, it was a long process that in some of our early tests, we failed. So we had to work out ways to get this right and this is a process that is exclusively ours, albeit in an open mould.

Agents do not invest in UCI approval and agents do not have a global liability insurance.

Yes, we are working on releasing more data, working on exclusive moulds and are also testing and developing other carbon wheel technologies. For the many that are enjoying Curve, thanks for the support. For the others watching from the sidelines, hopefully you will follow our journey and we will eventually satisfy you with a product that is worthy... feel free to tell us what that might be... we are listening.

Cheers
Adam


So, to summarise; you use open mould rims that you didn't design, and you get from a factory that also supplies some / all of the mainland Chinese sellers, like FarSports, Yeoleo, etc.

UCI approval; so you are listed on the UCI list then are you? With an open mould rim? Does that mean that anyone who uses this mould automatically gets UCI approval? I also thought that UCI approval was a whole wheel approval process, not just the rim...

Exclusive moulds; looking forward to seeing what this means.

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F45
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by F45

I see there are statements implying that the rims are made in the same factories as some big names but no solid statement about what materials used or how they perform. I see no reason to pay $1500 more for Curve than an open mold wheel.

by Weenie


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glepore
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by glepore

The fact that the mold is available for others to use doesn't mean that they get the same materials or layup specs. Of course, there is some degree of either expertise or faith involved in terms of whether the producer lives up to those specs, which is why guys like Dave earn their keep.

I ride open mold rims, in relatively non demanding situations they've been fine. I try to respect their limitations -ie while I've ridden them in the Blue Ridge I try to be conservative about braking and would think twice about riding them on Western or Alpine descents. I've had no issues. But, I know that I know nothing about the temperature tolerance of the brake track or anything else. A 50mm rim is a pretty stout piece of kit otherwise, so I don't sweat anything else about them.

The skepticism expressed here is a good thing, but the manner leaves a bit to be desired.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Berk custom (5.6); Serotta Ottrott(6.8) ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

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F45
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by F45

I also ride cheap china carbon, but I don't mind because I can replace a rim for $185. If I paid $1000 for that rim I'd expect more. A lot more.

Anyway, Boyd is offering free upgrade to his new hub design for the next few days. So for $1500 I could get an aero tested rim design with heat resistant carbon, hand built, on nice hubs with a ti freehub.

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boysa
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by boysa

+1. I don't have any issue with them being open mold. It's the price!

To each his own. Folks can spend their money anyway they see fit.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." William Munny

istigatrice
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by istigatrice

sugarkane wrote:You seriously have nothing to offer and your blog is quite frankly.... Lacking in any interesting content

Feel free to make suggestions to me :) I write the blog because I'm skeptical about products and try to find faults with them. I do apologise with the lack of content coming through, a combination of being busy and trying to break things :oops:

sugarkane wrote:You know that I fact I organised not one but two Rittes to be tested by cycling tips after your last effort. A much more worthy bunch to be testing bikes and someone who actually provided some coverage to the guys at Ritte Australia

I'm glad you received positive feedback for the bike. Cyclingtips do take some pretty pictures.

sugarkane wrote:You seriously need to change the way you engaged with industry members of you want to start actually getting products to review

I'm a skeptic, I try to break things so buyers don't need to break them. I try to find faults in the products, not sugarcoat them with marketing hype. I write because I'm tired of reading reviews where the reviewer knew what they were going to write before they even tested the product. If that annoys a few brands so be it.

Sorry for the off topic rant.
I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

I have no problem with a review been adjective or even totally honest but why the hell is any one going to take a chance with you when you attack the product before you even take a look at it let alone receive it.. As I said you need to adjust your initial aproch to industry members in the forums or your never going to 'break it'. Behaving like one of the 'penny weenie' rabble is going to get you nothing...

istigatrice
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by istigatrice

sugarkane wrote:attack the product before you even take a look at it let alone receive it.

I would argue that I'm more just reiterating the facts about the products. Have I attacked November, Flo etc? I agree I went over the top with Ritte (and I'm glad they're getting the exposure they deserve), but considering what I've said about Curve I think what I've said on this forum is appropriate? I asked about their processes, and if them getting a UCI sticker means farsports also gets the UCI sticker, and then when they claimed to have their own exclusive design I asked if they would be willing to have that verified. I hope you haven't confused my posts with TheDarkInstall, But if I have said anything out of line I do apologise (feel free to draw it to my attention).
I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)

grover
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:06 pm

by grover

istigatrice wrote:
CippoForLife wrote:...but a Curve-only configuration comes out of them.
Specifically - a combination of nipple bed thickness, spoke angle, brake track treatment and finish.
We believe our brake treatment is as good as any other carbon rim on the market when installed with proper (included) pads correctly.


Are the curve team confident enough in their product to send us a set to test and cut open? Will your brake track treatment stand up against Enve/Roval wheels and are they actually different to Farsports wheels?


istigatrice, why would Curve send you wheels? What are your qualifications, experience and equipment that would deem you a respectable source of review. Are you an engineer with experience in carbon manufacturing and how that relates to a wheel build. Do you have equipment to objectively measure how quickly the brake track heats up and what temperature it fails at. Do you have baseline data or cut up cross sections of Enve or Roval wheels (your example) to compare them to?

I'm happy to be proven wrong but I suspect the answer to all of the above is no.

Would your review generate them any income? How much coverage does your blog get? How many unique hits a day? I suspect in the grand scheme of things your blog is meaningless. CyclingTips take pretty pictures but they also get hundreds of thousands of hits a day comprised of clientel that actually spend good money in the industry. That's why they get product to review.

I don't own nor have I ever used Curve wheels. I know people that have, mostly in cyclocross use. I know people that have broken them, but those same people have also broken Enve, DT Swiss, Reynolds, Zipp, Dura-Ace rims.

So the mould is open. So what, that's just a shape. There is much more to the rim than the shape. As has been listed the materials, spoke beds, resin, layup, brake track can all differ between two identical 'looking' open mould rims. I can put green water in an ice block, or I can put lime cordial in an ice block. They'll look the same but one will perform much better for its intended use (as a tasty cold treat) than the other.

What I do know is that this is a company that is easily contactable and support their product. A company that I would have faith in standing behind their warranty process. More than that though, is that they appear to actually want to make a good product not just money. I don't want to be second guessing myself braking on a decent on an open mould rim not knowing when the brake track is going to explode.

I acknowledge Curve hasn't released any data to show brake track failure point but I have more faith in them wanting to offer a product that keeps my teeth in my mouth than any far east open mould carbon agent. Yes if a cheap China direct rim fails I can buy another for the price of one Curve rim, but I can't replace my teeth for that price let alone my brain.

The UCI test is about catastrophic failure. I've used cheap China direct rims and SOME of them have failed catastrophically, some have failed whilst being built. The issue is that you don't know what you're buying with these 'brandless' rims. This is not due to their shape/mould. It's down to how they're constructed (material, resin, layup, ENGINEERING!). The UCI test is about a wheelbuild but if you're building 20 radial front, 24 2x rear, with Sapim CX Rays on DT 240s hubs by a reputable builder then the difference is the rim construction alone.

To me, Curve are offereing a UCI approved wheel at a cheaper price than most on good quality hubs and rims that hits a good weight so they are a legitimate option in the market place. We don't know about their aerodynamic properties specifically but they seem to conform to the latest aerodynamic trends. We don't know about their brake track failure point specifically but we know that it's probably not a catastrophic failure which is the crucial thing.

istigatrice
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by istigatrice

grover wrote:What are your qualifications, experience and equipment that would deem you a respectable source of review. Are you an engineer with experience in carbon manufacturing and how that relates to a wheel build. Do you have equipment to objectively measure how quickly the brake track heats up and what temperature it fails at.


I'm doing research at the ANU (QMC methods) and should be able to collaborate with other cyclists in the physics/engineering departments to do this. We do have access to Roval, Syncros and Enve carbon wheels (as our own wheels), however we won't be cutting those up (and since we're not interested in their spoke nipple thickness etc. there's no need to).

grover wrote:Would your review generate them any income? How much coverage does your blog get? How many unique hits a day? I suspect in the grand scheme of things your blog is meaningless. CyclingTips take pretty pictures but they also get hundreds of thousands of hits a day comprised of clientel that actually spend good money in the industry. That's why they get product to review.


Our blog is not designed to generate income for other brands - we aim to be unbiased and unaffiliated with any brand. There are websites like bikeradar etc. that can help generate income. I don't try and compete with them for that space (because I don't have the resources for it), and I try to differentiate myself by publishing content for the weightweenies audience, rather than the broader cycling community as a whole. It allows me to write about things I wouldn't normally be able to write about (eg talking about the Golden Cheetah integration of the computers).

Our blog gets 300,000 unique hits each month. Nothing compared to cycling tips, bikeradar etc. As you've mentioned they probably get that in one day..

I think you miss the point of this blog - we're no cycling tips or bike radar, we don't try to compete for them by generating 'reviews' which will help sell products. Instead I try and do things a little differently, I aim towards a different audience. I try to test products from an unbiased perspective and use the scientific method (which is uber time consuming and expensive). Just like how weightweenies and the bikeradar forum are different, our blog is very different to their reviews. Apart from the product testing I'm also meant to post about my tuning activities (which are non existent at the moment - sorry).

Hopefully that gives you an idea of what the blogs about. We aim to a different, smaller and more targeted audience so the content we produce is (obviously) very different to other websites' content. If you're not happy about what I write about I am always happy to take suggestions - though I am certainly in no position to try and produce reviews which will earn a company money - that's a job for their marketing/engineering department, not me.

I think I've ranted long enough about the blog. If you have any further questions/comments feel free to PM me :D
I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)

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F45
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by F45

sugarkane wrote:I have no problem with a review been adjective or even totally honest but why the hell is any one going to take a chance with you when you attack the product before you even take a look at it let alone receive it.. .


The usual complaint is that reviews are too nice. If there was a review site that gave nothing but negative reviews on every product, I would read it frequently.

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

I think you are confusing the traffic numbers of the forum with that of the blog. There is no way your getting 300000 hits a month unless 90% of them are you.. There is no worth while content. I mean who seriously wants to see an in depth review of a middle rung tire for riding your $2k road bike to work on. I has absolutely no relevance to the Real Weight Weenie Crowd. Penny Weenies maybe but that's an undercurrent of the forums that has dragged it down over the last few years. I'm very surprised that the guys from star bike let you carry on the way you do in their name. 300000 unque hits a month... Please stop kidding your self istigarice its embarrassing :roll:

istigatrice
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by istigatrice

Thanks for the negative review. This is exactly the sort of content F45 has been looking for :) . I certainly wish I had the time to give myself 300,000 hits - if I had that much time maybe I would be writing some 'real' content :shock:

I originally looked at the Rubino tyres to try and validate my Crr methods - but since they're a wash - error bars are way too high for my small sample size (you can do statistics on a sample size of 3 but it won't be pretty) I thought I'd switch tack and just publish a 'feel' review - since it isn't as quantitative, and I don't need to do any statistics on how a tyre feels (and I thought a down to Earth tyre review might be interesting)... I'm sorry that you wasted your time reading it :(

Maybe the S-works tyres I've got in for review would be more interesting? I guess I should stop kidding myself. I don't think you'll find anything I write interesting :? .

Also, don't be so harsh on the Penny Weenies - I don't know about you but I find it quite special when they produce a sub 6kg bike on a tight budget through their own tuning efforts and attention to detail. I certainly don't believe they're an undercurrent dragging the forums down. If anything, I think it would be this banter between parties that strays way off topic which is detrimental to this forum(are we even going to discuss curve wheels here anymore?)
I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)

sawyer
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by sawyer

@grover, you make some fair points I agree with, and good luck to Curve

I think the main issue the sceptics have in this thread is ultimately VFM

Curve's 50mm carbon clincher is AUD $2,700 and weighs 1495g

In GBP that is c£1,300

For that money you can get Campagnolo Bora One clinchers

Which are fractionally lighter, have fewer spokes, same depth, are slightly wider, and if general opinion on this forum is anything to go by have at least as good hubs

Oh and the Boras will depreciate far less making total cost of ownership much lower - I sell enough components to know very well what holds value and what doesn't

That is the problem with Curve's proposition. Not the wheel. The price and VFM

Looking at the relative prices of carbon wheels on the market, Curve's offering looks to be about $1000 overpriced
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

TheDarkInstall
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Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:44 am

by TheDarkInstall

sawyer wrote:Curve's offering looks to be about $1000 overpriced


LOL, at least...

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/OEM-T700 ... eb201560_6

But hey, at least Curver give you a set of the exact same skewers and brake pads that FarSports supply with the very same wheels...

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
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