Curve Cycling Wheels

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

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boysa
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by boysa

Yeah, you were doing good until you grouped November in with the others. Not even close. I don't own a set of their wheels, but they are a great example of an open business model and I recommend reading through Dave's posts over on their website. Lots of "free" information.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." William Munny

by Weenie


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TheDarkInstall
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by TheDarkInstall

LOL@credibility. I have no vested interest in any of these rims, and this is all just words on a screen.

Fair enough if November are actually designing and making their own rims.

And yeah, 'not even close'... well, not exactly the same, no, but not exactly completely different. Still open mould stuff with a few variations, rather than designing from the ground up.

NovemberDave
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by NovemberDave

TheDarkInstall wrote:LOL@credibility. I have no vested interest in any of these rims, and this is all just words on a screen.

Fair enough if November are actually designing and making their own rims.

And yeah, 'not even close'... well, not exactly the same, no, but not exactly completely different. Still open mould stuff with a few variations, rather than designing from the ground up.


Thanks istigatrice, Ergott, boysa et al.

Darkinstall, you've just got no idea what you're talking about with us. The Rail 52 was initiated in July of 2012, initially tested in January of 2013, and first sold in April 2013. The design of course builds on other work that preceded it, but the crux of the design was an 18mm bead seat width, which did not exist in road carbon clinchers before we did it. There are a bunch of other elements that were unique to our design at the time, but the 18mm bead seat width was the big one. All of this is readily seen in our blog archives. You're calling us the cart when we're the horse. I will refrain from accusing you of sounding like a particular part of the horse on this.

For everyone else who may chance across this post, just read our blog and draw your own conclusions. It's all out there.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

That's always been one of the more interesting things about November. Transparency in a market full of cloak and dagger.
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TheDarkInstall
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Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:44 am

by TheDarkInstall

NovemberDave wrote:
TheDarkInstall wrote:LOL@credibility. I have no vested interest in any of these rims, and this is all just words on a screen.

Fair enough if November are actually designing and making their own rims.

And yeah, 'not even close'... well, not exactly the same, no, but not exactly completely different. Still open mould stuff with a few variations, rather than designing from the ground up.


Thanks istigatrice, Ergott, boysa et al.

Darkinstall, you've just got no idea what you're talking about with us. The Rail 52 was initiated in July of 2012, initially tested in January of 2013, and first sold in April 2013. The design of course builds on other work that preceded it, but the crux of the design was an 18mm bead seat width, which did not exist in road carbon clinchers before we did it. There are a bunch of other elements that were unique to our design at the time, but the 18mm bead seat width was the big one. All of this is readily seen in our blog archives. You're calling us the cart when we're the horse. I will refrain from accusing you of sounding like a particular part of the horse on this.

For everyone else who may chance across this post, just read our blog and draw your own conclusions. It's all out there.


Haha, alright no need to hint at name calling. I appreciate you actually saying what you have done, which like Nefarious86 said, is a good thing.

Got a link to the blog post(s) where you outline your design process (checked your site, and your blog posts are extensive...)?

NovemberDave
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by NovemberDave

TheDarkInstall wrote:Haha, alright no need to hint at name calling. I appreciate you actually saying what you have done, which like Nefarious86 said, is a good thing.

Got a link to the blog post(s) where you outline your design process (checked your site, and your blog posts are extensive...)?


Start here http://www.novemberbicycles.com/blog/2013/1/24/moneyball-for-cyclists.html and enjoy the rabbit hole.

Sorry if I was brusque, but my tolerance for ill-informed, flippant accusations, when we've been uniquely transparent since before we even started selling anything, is completely gone. You say it's only words on a screen, but it so completely isn't. It's 5 plus years that we've been working our b---s off to bring great products to people at lower cost than is otherwise available. Get informed and we can have an intelligent discussion, spout inflammatory ignorance and we can't.

TheDarkInstall
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by TheDarkInstall

NovemberDave wrote:
TheDarkInstall wrote:Haha, alright no need to hint at name calling. I appreciate you actually saying what you have done, which like Nefarious86 said, is a good thing.

Got a link to the blog post(s) where you outline your design process (checked your site, and your blog posts are extensive...)?


Start here http://www.novemberbicycles.com/blog/2013/1/24/moneyball-for-cyclists.html and enjoy the rabbit hole.

Sorry if I was brusque, but my tolerance for ill-informed, flippant accusations, when we've been uniquely transparent since before we even started selling anything, is completely gone. You say it's only words on a screen, but it so completely isn't. It's 5 plus years that we've been working our b---s off to bring great products to people at lower cost than is otherwise available. Get informed and we can have an intelligent discussion, spout inflammatory ignorance and we can't.


Thanks for the link.

A straight question then; did you get one of the Xiamen rims and modify it based on the info you outline in the link provided, and then have them (or whoever) make you up a prototype, or did you design the entire rim from scratch, and have someone make you up a prototype? I speak with a lot of the sellers in Xiamen and am aware of the process of setting up a mould (it is several thousand USD to do so). If yours is designed from scratch, have you filed a patent on it?

NovemberDave
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by NovemberDave

You're welcome. If you read the two posts immediately prior to the one I linked, you'll get a more complete explanation of my answer to your question.

We designed the Rail 52 from as scratch as it could possibly be done without us actually making the prototype rim ourselves by hand. We sent my drawing to a place (in Taiwan) that could cut the yellow prototype rim. They sent us the yellow rim, the shape of which I verified as closely as I could. I then built that rim into a wheel (which now hangs above the fridge in our shop - it weighs about 12 pounds and you maybe could ride it but I wouldn't) and we sent it to A2. We were happy with the result so we released the mold and had a pre-production round made. We rode those and had others ride them. They worked great. We went into production.

You have to realize that what we wanted wasn't even available at the time the 52 was made. Of the number of Xiamen sellers that you likely think are actual factories - and which bill themselves as such - MAYBE 10% of those actually produce rims. The rest are just trading companies picking up whatever shape looks hot this week from some place that's just pumping rims out. At that time, you didn't want to buy from anyone who would sell to you. It's only 3 years ago but it feels like pre-history, and in a lot of ways it is.

I'd never actually held a mainland rim (that is to say, not branded - several bigger brands produce in China) in my hand until about 4 months ago. We got some to test. The ones we got are very nicely molded, their heat specs are nowhere near what you'd need to sell them (they're at like 220f, you need at least like 100f more than that), and the open molds still aren't the right shape or the right dimensions. We bought from one of the best places, who actually supply a bunch of trading companies. We're not anyone's idea of some huge company (we're decidedly not) but with the time we have into it, we can navigate the system pretty well. Obviously we have just a bit more access than the average Joe, but when we talk to a supplier it's not some hope-and-pray deal in terms of the materials. The company itself you have to vet and there is some hope-and-pray, as there is in EVERY business even if you are just hiring a plumber to install a sink for you. We have our shit together - tightly - in terms of the information we're going to require of any carbon company we'd buy from. And we have really well developed verification techniques, tools, and networks to help us vet product. And it's been a HUGE learning process for us. We're laps of the earth better at this than we were when we started. And yes, it's carbon and wheels, so you do get warranties. They happen, they're not all created equally, and how you manage them once they've happened really counts too.

A Rail 52 is actually a very specific design. Look at a Firecrest 404, then look at a Rail 52, then look at a Firestrike 404 and tell me what you see, shape-wise. Look specifically at the radius of the inside edge, and how each rim develops width.

Filing a patent, for us, would be the pinnacle of waste. We put the Rail mark on it (which is actually going away with our new mold, at this point we don't feel we need it and the mold maker hated doing it the first time) to hopefully forestall the entire conversation we've had in this thread. Did it work? But even if someone copied the exact precise shape, if we have to have a court tell you that you have to buy that shape from us, rather than have you want to buy it from us because you want to buy it from us, we've hosed ourselves anyway. And we can't afford litigation that our insurance wouldn't cover.

Molds are several thousand dollars, yes.

CippoForLife
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by CippoForLife

Guys, not to reignite a flame, but here are some details from Curve re: history, mould licensing, etc...this is not a direct quote but a recap of Steve's description in terms of how things developed. Happy to clarify any other details.

-----

- After back and forth communication in 2010 with several factories that we narrowed down to being "Reliable product" we delved further by buying products from them to have tested by our local Carbon Guru Raoul Luescher of luescher teknik - http://luescherteknik.com.au/
- We then culled factory communication to 2 manufacturers based on those results.
- In 2011 we then begin to discuss the mould building process with them and found out more about exclusivity in Curve only moulds. From there Curve request what size rims, specs, target weights , shapes, etc. are wanted.
- Both factories agreed to begin making moulds for us at no exclusive charge if they can open each mould for general use. We agree. This decision is pretty clear as we had sample rims from 5-6 major brands here at one stage, and the profiles were hard to distinguish. So why invest so much money in a shape that is so close to your competitors with no way of promising a better quality product. Additionally we are reassured that the engineer in charge of mould development was also in charge of another main-stream high end brand.
- For the last 4 years we have helped fast track the open mould market to the level it is at today. We also go one step further by custom speccing spoke rim bed depths, spoke hole angles, rim bed shapes ETC.
- After several trips to Asia we meet more people in the back end of production and have invitations to move production to some other factories, whom also happen to be making product for the big brands. With my own eyes I have seen brands such as Reynolds, FFWD, Cannondale to scratch the surface, at various stages of manufacture in the same facilities.
- Since 2013 Curve has settled on one manufacturing partner who manufactures solely wheels and rims. They are very flexible in working with us to produce what the we and the market wants. We do have an open mould agreement with them but a Curve-only configuration comes out of them.
Specifically - a combination of nipple bed thickness, spoke angle, brake track treatment and finish.
We believe our brake treatment is as good as any other carbon rim on the market when installed with proper (included) pads correctly.
- With this manufacturer we also committed to UCI testing and developed 2 rim combinations that passed after rigorous review.

It seems that many emerging brands re-sell generic product without the extensive testing and development. Curve believe they have matured well beyond this and have a great story to tell. Additionally, no-name products don't win events like the TransAm race - Curve products do.

-----

Best,
Mike

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boysa
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by boysa

CippoForLife wrote:...This decision is pretty clear as we had sample rims from 5-6 major brands here at one stage, and the profiles were hard to distinguish. So why invest so much money in a shape that is so close to your competitors with no way of promising a better quality product.


:noidea: Seriously? I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference between brand profiles when they are sitting in front of me. In addition, oh, I don't know, perhaps one way to tell if they were better than your competitors would be to actually TEST THEM!
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." William Munny

AdamDeCurve
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Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:50 am

by AdamDeCurve

Howdy all,

Adam from Curve Cycling.

Wow, hasn't this post gone crazy... thanks all for the comments, they give us great insight to see what people think of our brand. Ultimately it helps us understand how we can grow and develop our products, brand and messaging. The comments almost make us feel like celebrity :)

So to comment;

We have always been open about our "open mould" - especially because in forums like this, we know that we could not afford to lie about it.

It's pretty easy to see why we are compared to Far Sports, they have a strong online presence that ranks well on google and offer a very similar yet expanded range to what we do... sure, it annoys us that they exist, but so do many other similar agents, companies, websites and factories.

We get about 2-5 emails a week from agents and factories in Taiwan and China asking us to use their rims and wheels. They offer us products that look, on the surface, exactly like ours; DT Swiss, CX Ray 38mm or 50mm Rim. Whilst some are legitimate factories, many only claim so and are more or less agents selling products from "who knows where". We had to wade through all this stuff 5 years ago, but as we travelled over to Asia and tested our product back here in Oz, only then we could progress further and feel confident in bringing a good product to market.

Furthermore we have developed UCI approved rims - A significant investment for us, where our rims were independently tested and approved in Belgium, it was a long process that in some of our early tests, we failed. So we had to work out ways to get this right and this is a process that is exclusively ours, albeit in an open mould.

Agents do not invest in UCI approval and agents do not have a global liability insurance.

Yes, we are working on releasing more data, working on exclusive moulds and are also testing and developing other carbon wheel technologies. For the many that are enjoying Curve, thanks for the support. For the others watching from the sidelines, hopefully you will follow our journey and we will eventually satisfy you with a product that is worthy... feel free to tell us what that might be... we are listening.

Cheers
Adam

AdamDeCurve
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:50 am

by AdamDeCurve

And right on cue - here is an example of email I just received. After a quick look at their range they could easily "supply us" with all the products that we offer... except we know that they are not actually Curve products. We deal with Asia, so out of respect I will not publish who sent this.


A**, Nov 24, 13:47

Dear Adam,

This is A** from X* X* Co., Ltd. China, glad to hear that you
are doing carbon wheels, road wheels, MTB wheels, cx wheels, frames, forks etc.


Our company is a factory and trading company offer carbon bike wheels, rims and frames
with good quality and low price .
Please contact me freely if you need price or further information.
Have a good day!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks and Best regards, A**
Company: X* X* Co., Ltd.

istigatrice
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 8:32 am
Location: Australia

by istigatrice

CippoForLife wrote:Additionally, no-name products don't win events like the TransAm race - Curve products do.


AdamDeCurve wrote:We have always been open about our "open mould"


Care to explain what you mean by this then? Are you claiming that a pretty sticker is all you need? Not a fan of this sort of marketing spiel but each to their own.
I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)

istigatrice
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 8:32 am
Location: Australia

by istigatrice

CippoForLife wrote:...but a Curve-only configuration comes out of them.
Specifically - a combination of nipple bed thickness, spoke angle, brake track treatment and finish.
We believe our brake treatment is as good as any other carbon rim on the market when installed with proper (included) pads correctly.


Are the curve team confident enough in their product to send us a set to test and cut open? Will your brake track treatment stand up against Enve/Roval wheels and are they actually different to Farsports wheels?
I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)

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sugarkane
in the industry
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by sugarkane

And right on Q for this kinda crap from you! istigarice.. I have no idea why star bike have given you the blog for the weightweenies site. You seriously think that you are going to get anything worth while to review given you usually start procedings by attacking someone.. Much like the Ritte thing a while back you won't be getting any wheels to review or cut up.. I'm a curve supplier and I will make sure that never happens. You know that I fact I organised not one but two Rittes to be tested by cycling tips after your last effort. A much more worthy bunch to be testing bikes and someone who actually provided some coverage to the guys at Ritte Australia . You seriously have nothing to offer and your blog is quite frankly.... Lacking in any interesting content
As far as the curves and brake tracks go I have had zero brake track failures in the city of Sydney ( city of over 5 million people for those who are not familiar with the place ) on the curve wheels I have sold or have come in direct. Same can't be said for enve 3.4s or November Rails which are no longer been sold other this way after all the failures. You seriously need to change the way you engaged with industry members of you want to start actually getting products to review..... :noidea:

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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