Differences in carbon clinchers?

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Jcgill
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Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:03 pm

by Jcgill

Hello everyone,

I am planning a ti road bike build for the near future and am trying to decide on a wheelset.
I live in the flat Chicagoland area and weigh 170lbs.

I have read a ton of reviews and it seems there is no clear answer, but what is the key differences between a cheaper and more expensive carbon clincher??

Say $1300 boyds, reynolds, williams, psimet, and other wheels
As opposed to $2000 and over enve, zipp, and the like.

Will i notice anything by spending and extra 700 dollars? Some reviews favor the cheaper wheels.

These will be my first carbon wheels so not sure which way to go.

Thank you,
Jon

davidalone
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by davidalone

The more expensive carbon wheels- zipp, enve, and possibly lightweight, will generally have these advantages over 'cheaper' carbon wheels:

1) aerodynamics: the trend between carbon rim shapes is that fatter rims are more aero, and the leading aerodynamic brands- zipp, enve, HED, knights, bontrager, shimano, easton, and campagnolo- all echo this. mavic, FFWD and reynolds are the outliers as they have different ideas about rim shapes and aerodynamics. they are scientifically 'faster' and more stable in crosswinds. this is not something you can easily perceive out on the road though.

2) hubs: the cheaper wheels will usaully be using OEM hubs from taiwan, while more expensive wheels will be using in-house deisgned hubs or proven brand names like DT swiss or chris king. This is not necessarily a bad thing, and not to say that OEM hubs are bad. in fact OEM hubs offer great value, but perhaps need a little more TLC. some more expensive brands will offer ceramic bearings as an upgrade but this is not worth your money.

3) lightweight: this may or may not be the case. in the case of some of the very high end wheels- mavic CCU or lightweight melenstiens they use measures like carbon spokes and hubs to cut weight. some wheels, like the reynolds, are very hard to beat on weight. but in general, the more you pay, the lighter you get.

4) Braking surfaces: carbon clinchers are notorious for being bad at breaking. some of the better brands have measures to take care of this, but again, Your mileage may vary.

5) quality of construction. the better brands use more advanced techniques to make their rims, resulting in a nicer carbon layup ( look closely at a knights or ENVE rim versus a OEM rim from psimet). usually this does not have any practical benefit other than from an aesthtic point of view. theoretically it has durability benefits, but in reality spokes and other parts usually break before any concern in the carbon itself.
Also, heat buildup on the braking surface is a big concern among carbon clinchers. The bigger brands have put more research into this and have developed some high temperature resins that can better withstand heat buildup better. although most of the brands nowadays are pretty decent at this.

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FIJIGabe
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by FIJIGabe

I've owned two sets of Reynolds and two sets of Zipps. The Reynolds were much better at braking with the older blue pads than the Zipps, and I've heard the new pads are even better. In terms of hubs, the Reynolds were pretty good. One set had the generic "Reynolds" branded hubs, the other had the DT Swiss 240 hubs. The DT hubs were superior, but I never had a problem with either.

Are the wheels noticeably better? Meh, it's arguable. Zipps do offer superior aero advantages to the Reynolds wheels I had, and I'm talking both 303's and 404's (vs. DV3k's and 66's). If I had to do it again, I'd go with the Zipps.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

The problem with the second post is that I have found a Chinese produced clincher rim that may be a bit heavier than enve's offering but in terms of stability in cross winds, braking ( even in wet), longevity of the brake track resins they give little up if anything to the likes of zipp renoylds e.t.c. can't comment of enve as I have never had any and I won't. The best thing is they can be built with top end hubs if you buy just the rims. Also zipp hubs compared to a Taiwanese hub, I would rather have the Taiwanese hub. Braking on carbon rims can be comparable as it is on alloy rims. Braking feels different on carbon but with the right pads stopping quickly is not an issue. Had to do it in a wet race this year due to a crash in front of me. I have 6600 trouble free mixed weather miles on mine and the braking is still good but I have noticed a slight deterioration in the braking feel on the front but it does not seem to affecting stopping distance. I am still using riding them not likely to stop because it's winter.

There is alot of fear about the quality of Chinese produced rims. Some are better than others some are so good buying something from an established brand is a waste of money. I think I got lucky with my find an no I am not telling the source.

So in short buy a decent set of Chinese carbon rims from a reputable source and get the them build up with good hubs.

mimason
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by mimason

Many of the Asian rims are from Taiwan and are of superior quality on average than most of the Chinese offerings....for the most part. I know Novermber, for example, sources Taiwanese rims of good quality and laces them up to WI hubs. These would be a solid option for example.

I am considering this to relace some hubs I would provide from another 'old' wheelset.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

This the problem Chinese manufacturers are never take about by name they are lumped together making it impossible to anything that is relevance to all chinese firms. I will remind you that the h plus son archetype ( a very good alloy clincher) is produced and branded by a Chinese firms. Some if them know what they are doing.

Also some Taiwanese firms (I am not talking specifically about rims) have manufacturing plants in China. Many carbon frames for big brands are produced in China. Branding is a powerful tool, it hides many short comings (zipp hubs for example) and you don't don't the qc procedures of brands anymore than you do for a Chinese firm. No one let's on the actual resins used and there tg point. There are not many tests on heat build up done on carbon rims. Hense the generalised comments which reinforce the power of branding.

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arizonahalfnhalf
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by arizonahalfnhalf

Like bm0p^ said, don't get too hung up on the location of manufacturers.

In my experience, Reynolds are the best in terms of braking. I've ridden Zipp Firecrests as well as Enve's along with Reynolds with a few different pads on each wheels and found that Reynolds are the most consistent and work the best with persistent braking and tolerating the heat. The Reynolds Cyro Blue pads are also excellent, and cheap. I felt they worked the best on other brands of rims as well.

To be honest, I really can't discern a huge difference between alloy rims and my reynolds rims in terms of stopping power. If I were blind folded, I don't think I'd be able to tell which wheels I was on. I'm sure there is a difference, but for me I think it is pretty negligible. I also weigh 130lb so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I've ridden multiple sets of reynolds in different depths, all have been super reliable. I have >10,000 miles on 2 sets and no issues whatsoever, they brake and work as well as they did when they were new.

I think a lot of people are still skeptical of carbon clinchers, which may have been appropriate 5-10 years ago, but I think the technology has come a long way. Carbon clinchers have the nice ride quality and aerodynamics of carbon wheels with the convenience of clinchers. Prices have come down significantly and quality has dramatically improved.

Buy cheaper, there is no need to ever spend >$1500 on a set of ANY carbon clinchers. Buy lightly used for half of retail and enjoy them.

AJS914
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by AJS914

I'm only skeptical of the actual benefits of expensive aero wheels. Zipp says a 303 set saves 60 seconds over 40k at 30mph. And that is at the perfect yaw angle.

What is the real world savings at 15-20mph not at the perfect yaw angle? I'd guess it's not enough to merit spending $2000 on a set of wheels.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Believe it or not if you do the maths and I have the lower the speed the greater the absolute time saving in seconds but when expressed as a % time saved the faster rider has a better results. Aero gains are very real. Also a expensive set of enve's will not save much over a much cheaper set of Chinese rimmed wheels if the rim profile is similar.

Marin
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by Marin

There's also tire width and tire profile to take into accout, generally you want a tire that is narrower than the rim for lowest drag.

BTW, I have 3 sets of chinese carbon clinchers that together cost me less than a single set of Reynolds, Zipps or Enves.

However, what I'd probably do today is have a set of Extralite or DT Hubs laced to a proven set of Far East rims by a reputable builder, or even do it myself.

AJS914
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by AJS914

bm0p700f wrote:Believe it or not if you do the maths and I have the lower the speed the greater the absolute time saving in seconds but when expressed as a % time saved the faster rider has a better results. Aero gains are very real. Also a expensive set of enve's will not save much over a much cheaper set of Chinese rimmed wheels if the rim profile is similar.



I'm sure the gains are real. I guess it depends on what results you are chasing. The gains seem pretty small for the riding a typical recreational cyclist might do.

I'm not against good equipment or expensive equipment if adds to one's overall enjoyment. I usually purchase though based on bang for the buck and saving a handful of seconds on a fitness ride doesn't seem worth the significant extra cost nor the trade-offs in braking you get with carbon rims. Now if you are riding for time and those aero tweaks add up to minutes over a long course then I could see buying this kind of equipment.

Prices keep coming down and the braking keeps improving with high temperature resins and materials so maybe when I need a new wheelset in 5 years it might be carbon. Maybe when I need a new helmet, they will all have been wind tunnel tested and you won't have to pay $200+ for an aero road helmet?

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

For the average cyclist aero wheels can be a waste of money I never argued that. Even for a rider who can hold 6W/kg aero wheels are not much help if they are on a club ride. They make there presence flat in events where the seconds or minutes count.

I have not found trade offs on braking with the rims I have got. My posts are not about trying to convince people they should buy carbon rimmed wheels but to try to dispelled myths or fear about a them. Some rims are better than others some need good pads too but brand all carbon rims with poor braking performance would be wrong. Even in the wet the ones I have work quite well.

Most most a good set of alloy rimmed wheels come pretty close for aerodynamic performance.

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kavitator
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by kavitator

Sound from deep carbon is special - clinchers has less sound than tubulars - but there is "WOF WOF":)
So you more enjoy in ride

dmulligan
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by dmulligan

^this

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