Contradicting tubular glueing instructions: Campagnolo & Con
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- Lightweenie
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:00 pm
Hello,
I am new to tubulars and just got a pair of bora one 50's and Continental gatorskins that are stretching on them right now. In another 48 hours I should start with the glueing, however Campagnolo and Continental provide contradicting instructions which is quite confusing:
Continental: exactly 2 layers on the tire, exactly 1 layer on the rim. Put one layer on each, wait 12 hours, put another layer on the tire and mount the tire immediately.
Campagnolo: at least 1 layer on the tire and at least 2 on the rim. Leave at least 12 hours between each layer (it does not mention how long to wait before mounting the tire).
Any ideas? I was thinking to put 2+2 layers (which satisfies both recommendations for tire, but would contradict Continentals instructions for the rim), wait 12 hours between the two layers and mount immediately after the second layer. What do more experienced users recommend?
lightweenie
I am new to tubulars and just got a pair of bora one 50's and Continental gatorskins that are stretching on them right now. In another 48 hours I should start with the glueing, however Campagnolo and Continental provide contradicting instructions which is quite confusing:
Continental: exactly 2 layers on the tire, exactly 1 layer on the rim. Put one layer on each, wait 12 hours, put another layer on the tire and mount the tire immediately.
Campagnolo: at least 1 layer on the tire and at least 2 on the rim. Leave at least 12 hours between each layer (it does not mention how long to wait before mounting the tire).
Any ideas? I was thinking to put 2+2 layers (which satisfies both recommendations for tire, but would contradict Continentals instructions for the rim), wait 12 hours between the two layers and mount immediately after the second layer. What do more experienced users recommend?
lightweenie
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Putting 1 or 2 layers on the tire and letting it dry is somewhat irrelevant. The glue soaks into the base tape so there is no difference between 1 or 2 layers. So I put 1 layer on the tire and let it dry. Overnight or a whole day, does not matter. This exactly 12 hours stuff is nonsense. Just don't let it dry for weeks or months, then it would lose effectiveness. The glue should be dry but not bone dry. Freshly dried. If the glue is months or years dry, then it is just hard crust. Not effective. Few days of drying, perfect.
For the rim I put on 2 layers and let them dry overnight or a whole day. 1 layer would also work but I think its best to build up the glue a bit on the rim. 2 thin layers preferred over 1 thick layer.
Then after all the layers of glue are dry, put a fresh coat on the rim and mount the tire. No need to put a fresh coat on both rim and tire. You just need liquid fresh glue on one surface to mount the tire on the rim. Makes everything slick and easier to mount, no friction. I think the fresh glue also helps to activate the dry glue. The fresh glue bonds with the dry glue and sticks everything together. Dry glue on the rim and dry glue on the tire would not stick together. Dry glue does not bond to other dry glue. You need the liquid glue in the middle to stick them together.
For the rim I put on 2 layers and let them dry overnight or a whole day. 1 layer would also work but I think its best to build up the glue a bit on the rim. 2 thin layers preferred over 1 thick layer.
Then after all the layers of glue are dry, put a fresh coat on the rim and mount the tire. No need to put a fresh coat on both rim and tire. You just need liquid fresh glue on one surface to mount the tire on the rim. Makes everything slick and easier to mount, no friction. I think the fresh glue also helps to activate the dry glue. The fresh glue bonds with the dry glue and sticks everything together. Dry glue on the rim and dry glue on the tire would not stick together. Dry glue does not bond to other dry glue. You need the liquid glue in the middle to stick them together.
- Lightweenie
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:00 pm
Thanks for the answer, now I have also a third option. I guess the two layers on the tire are OK, since Conti says 2 and Campa says at least 1. My main concern is that Continental explicitly shows that there should not be another layer on the rim (look for example at the picture here: https://www.worldclasscycles.com/contin ... ctions.htm) and Campagnolo says at least 2.
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Throw the instructions away.
one layer of glue on the rim, leave over night, then another layer on the rim and the tyre and leave over night. Mount tyre centre and inflate to 120 psi and leave over night.
You can susbustite the over night for enough hours for the glue to be dry. You want the glue to be dry so glue does not end up all over the sidewalls. You are trying to take the instructions too literally.
one layer of glue on the rim, leave over night, then another layer on the rim and the tyre and leave over night. Mount tyre centre and inflate to 120 psi and leave over night.
You can susbustite the over night for enough hours for the glue to be dry. You want the glue to be dry so glue does not end up all over the sidewalls. You are trying to take the instructions too literally.
1. throw away conti glue, get some vittoria glue
2. two thin coats on rim, 12-24 hours apart, one coat on tub
3. once above is dry, one more thin coat on rim, wait a couple of minutes, mount tub and centre
4. inflate, manually apply weight to squish tyre onto rim over full 360 degrees, leave to dry for a day
5. ride
2. two thin coats on rim, 12-24 hours apart, one coat on tub
3. once above is dry, one more thin coat on rim, wait a couple of minutes, mount tub and centre
4. inflate, manually apply weight to squish tyre onto rim over full 360 degrees, leave to dry for a day
5. ride
- HammerTime2
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Conti makes two different glues: the regular (aluminum rim) and the carbon(-specific).
The instructions everyone other than the OP is providing on this thread are for the regular (aluminum rim) glue, which should be applied in the manner they all know and love, which is the same as for Virttoria Mastik One. Conti carbon(-specific) glue is different and has its own instructions. The instructions you linked are for the carbon(-specific) glue.
So you first need to verify if the glue you have is indeed the carbon(-specific) glue. If it is, I recommend you either follow the provided instructions or use a different glue. Don't apply the Conti carbon(-specific) glue in the manner people have described in this thread.
Campagnolo provides instructions which presume you are using "regular" glue, such as Vittoria Mastk One or Conti regular (aluminum) glue.
The instructions everyone other than the OP is providing on this thread are for the regular (aluminum rim) glue, which should be applied in the manner they all know and love, which is the same as for Virttoria Mastik One. Conti carbon(-specific) glue is different and has its own instructions. The instructions you linked are for the carbon(-specific) glue.
So you first need to verify if the glue you have is indeed the carbon(-specific) glue. If it is, I recommend you either follow the provided instructions or use a different glue. Don't apply the Conti carbon(-specific) glue in the manner people have described in this thread.
Campagnolo provides instructions which presume you are using "regular" glue, such as Vittoria Mastk One or Conti regular (aluminum) glue.
- Lightweenie
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:00 pm
HammerTime2 wrote:Conti makes two different glues: the regular (aluminum rim) and the carbon(-specific).
The instructions everyone other than the OP is providing on this thread are for the regular (aluminum rim) glue, which should be applied in the manner they all know and love, which is the same as for Virttoria Mastik One. Conti carbon(-specific) glue is different and has its own instructions. The instructions you linked are for the carbon(-specific) glue.
So you first need to verify if the glue you have is indeed the carbon(-specific) glue. If it is, I recommend you either follow the provided instructions or use a different glue. Don't apply the Conti carbon(-specific) glue in the manner people have described in this thread.
Yes, I have the carbon specific glue. Since the instructions come with the tires rather than the glue itself, it also has the aluminum instructions on the other side, which are 4 layers on the rim and 4 or the tire - so this would not contradict campagnolos recommendation.
HammerTime2 wrote:Campagnolo provides instructions which presume you are using "regular" glue, such as Vittoria Mastk One or Conti regular (aluminum) glue.
It is true that Campagnolo does not directly specify the glue in the instructions, but at some later point it has a "Warning" to please only use glue specific for carbon rims, so I suppose their instructions are meant for carbon as well. Not sure though
- HammerTime2
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Campagnolo means to only use glue appropriate for carbon rims. Vittoria Mastik One is considered to be appropriate for aluminum or carbon rims. Conti regular (aluminum) can be used for carbon rims, but is generally considered to not be as good for carbon rims as Mastik One. Conti carbon is only for carbon rims. Clearly, Campagnonlo did not have Conti carbon in mind when providing its directions.
If you want to be in the mainstream of this board, then get and use Mastik One. Alternatively, give Effetto Mariposa Carogna Tubular Gluing Tape a whirl, in which case you'll have to figure out which width tape (based on inner width of rim) to get.
If you want to be in the mainstream of this board, then get and use Mastik One. Alternatively, give Effetto Mariposa Carogna Tubular Gluing Tape a whirl, in which case you'll have to figure out which width tape (based on inner width of rim) to get.
Last edited by HammerTime2 on Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Glue for carbon rims is not really needed. I suppose it softens at a higher temperature but if your glueing is good enough regular glue (vittoria mastik one) will do just fine. You are still worrying far too much over the instructions. They are there as a bit of CYA for campagnolo.
- wheelsONfire
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I wonder how much it matters!?
If you ask several guys who works with this i think you'll end up with different ideas.
I think Schwalbe recommends one layer on rim, one on tire and let it dry for 12 hours.
Then put a new layer on rim and mount tire. I have done so on my wheels using The One and it works great.
Some say it has to do with rolling resistance (more or less layers), other have other ideas for CC or MTB which perhaps require more layers!?
I would also care for the matter of weight using many layers.
Don't forget to roll tire with body weight pressured against tire/rim once you have set the tire straight.
About psi, i was told to inflate tire to almost maximum pressure rim allows or tire recommendations pressure.
I used Tufo previously, but i think it's kind of fun fiddling with this. Only thing that is crap, is getting old glue of the rims.
Oh, don't forget to check if you need valve extensions mounted before you glue the tire and also if it's a directional tire.
If you ask several guys who works with this i think you'll end up with different ideas.
I think Schwalbe recommends one layer on rim, one on tire and let it dry for 12 hours.
Then put a new layer on rim and mount tire. I have done so on my wheels using The One and it works great.
Some say it has to do with rolling resistance (more or less layers), other have other ideas for CC or MTB which perhaps require more layers!?
I would also care for the matter of weight using many layers.
Don't forget to roll tire with body weight pressured against tire/rim once you have set the tire straight.
About psi, i was told to inflate tire to almost maximum pressure rim allows or tire recommendations pressure.
I used Tufo previously, but i think it's kind of fun fiddling with this. Only thing that is crap, is getting old glue of the rims.
Oh, don't forget to check if you need valve extensions mounted before you glue the tire and also if it's a directional tire.
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Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.
You can 'get-away' with all kinds of stuff in life. i guess the question is, are you going to be happy with that? just like a lot of things in cycling, tubular gluing also has a pretty broad range of performance options (you certainly don't 'need' all that light-weight gear for a bike to work, but I'll bet you prefer it).
I still think that the first thing to don with a new rim is to make sure it is clean. Really clean. Next, I still think that using many thin, even layers on the rim makes the best bond that will not fail on you. Lastly, I like at least two layers on the tire (the 'new' Conti rim tape seems to soak-up more glue than other basetape does, so you'll need to play it by ear).
I am the first to admit that my own method of gluing may be overkill today, but I have never had a failure, so I'll keep doing it that way. My son will do it that way, too, and he'll never have a glue failure, either. You might be able to get-away with a lot of things with the lowest common denominator, but why would you do that?
I still think that the first thing to don with a new rim is to make sure it is clean. Really clean. Next, I still think that using many thin, even layers on the rim makes the best bond that will not fail on you. Lastly, I like at least two layers on the tire (the 'new' Conti rim tape seems to soak-up more glue than other basetape does, so you'll need to play it by ear).
I am the first to admit that my own method of gluing may be overkill today, but I have never had a failure, so I'll keep doing it that way. My son will do it that way, too, and he'll never have a glue failure, either. You might be able to get-away with a lot of things with the lowest common denominator, but why would you do that?
Every seen a pro mechanic wait 12 hours between coats?
40 min/ glue is dry to touch is plenty. I can glue a wheel ( 1 dry rim coat, 1-2 tire coats and 1 wet rim mounting coat ) in an hour and it's good to ride in the morning.. I have used tubs exclusively for over 6 years until I started building wheels a year ago and I glue tubs for other people for moneis..
Never had a drama or a rolled tub..
I think people over think it. The most important thing is that you or your customer tests the bond before using it. Pump the tire to 60psi.. And then try and get it off the rim.. If it an't going no where it's good to go
40 min/ glue is dry to touch is plenty. I can glue a wheel ( 1 dry rim coat, 1-2 tire coats and 1 wet rim mounting coat ) in an hour and it's good to ride in the morning.. I have used tubs exclusively for over 6 years until I started building wheels a year ago and I glue tubs for other people for moneis..
Never had a drama or a rolled tub..
I think people over think it. The most important thing is that you or your customer tests the bond before using it. Pump the tire to 60psi.. And then try and get it off the rim.. If it an't going no where it's good to go
sugarkane wrote:Pump the tire to 60psi.. And then try and get it off the rim.. If it an't going no where it's good to go
Just my opinion, but this is not the best advice and certainly not something I would recommend. Why would you create a good bond, only to then weaken that bond by trying to disrupt it? By attempting to pry the tire off the rim, you are putting forces on the tire it won't normally see on the road. If someone is new to this game, by all means they can do a visual inspection of the bond, but in no way is it necessary to attempt and pry the tire off. The tires are supposed to come off when you pry... that is why we don't use tape!
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Just use the new Vittoria Magic Mastik glue. Much much much easier! And no mess.
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