Aero lacing pattern, versus stifness lacing pattern

[Horze]

Brilliant.

Durability over aero.

Even aero specific wheels aren't that much faster than 32 spoke wheels. If you want a fast and aero wheel then you're priority will need to be durability. Wheels destroy easily. 32 spoke wheels can be fast and aero depending on choice of rim. But the thread has convinced me not to fiddle with lacing patterns.

[Marin]

What?

[WMW]

Even they have given up chasing a 16 spoke front and settled on 18 for the front in the last couple years. Enve uses 20.

Enve 8.9s are 16f and 20r.

[F45]

All of Shimano's Dura Ace wheels are 16 front. Do they have durability problems? I think half of the WT peloton is on them.

[ergott]

All of Shimano's Dura Ace wheels are 16 front. Do they have durability problems? I think half of the WT peloton is on them.

Yeah, and no one has ever broken a spoke or cracked rim with DA wheels. The age old "just because the peloton" argument strikes again. The peloton is handed as many wheels as they want. There was a time when practically half the peloton was on Zipps. That didn't mean they didn't have durability issues.

By all means we can go off on a wonderful tangent on whether 16 or 18 or 20 spokes is the recommended minimum spoke count with regards to durability. I was simply pointing out that aero wheels are usually around 20 spokes front. Yes I owned a set of Enve 8.9s so I know they are 16/20, but they are rarely used in road bike racing. They are usually used for triathlons.

[Horze]

What?

[F45]

So.....do they have durability problems?

[FreaK]

Wouldn't surprise me. I haven't dealt with many, but Shimano spokes are a pain to get since they change them and then promptly stop carrying replacements.
One thing they do to mitigate disaster is make the rim much stronger than would be necessary if there were more, like the old 12spoke Shamals only less extreme.

In regards to my wheelbuild, i have some Sapim Race and some DT Aero Speed in the right length for a radial build, leftover from a couple pairs of White H1 / Kinlin niobium. Don't have quite enough of the Aero Speed left though. That pair spent some time on my own bike before i sold them and they felt like they were a bit quicker than the wheels i've been running since. They were kind of noodly though.

My own feelings on the subject of this thread are along the same lines as many of the comments, but i was really really hoping to find something more precise than the general consensus, i'm going to go look up the Damon Rinard test. I remember Jobst Brandt did a test comparing tied-and-soldered to regular and his testing method didn't show any statistical difference. Has anyone looked at that since? My recollection of his testing method was that it wasn't as scientific as it read. I might go check that out again before I build the rear.

[davidalone]

those shimano wheels with 16 spoke fonts (dura ace C24s, in particular) have VERY high front spoke tensions. not actually very healthy for the hub or the rim. if you snap a spoke on one of those wheels, I can guarantee you you will NOT be riding home. dura ace front hubs are overbuilt and were sort of designed to take this load. the spokes are also propietary, so they may even have some special stuff in their design as well. even so the C24 and RS80 rims DO face problems with cracking at the nipple bed. I used to work for a shimano distributr bike shop and the C24 and RS80s we would get alot of them returned with these problems, especailly for heavier riders. they are very nice riding wheels but they are NOT ideal as everyday drivers especially if you are a heavy guy.

[FreaK]

So it's going to be Crono F20 with 2x silver Aerospeeds.
Anyone want 20 black 286mm Aerospeeds?

[F45]

those shimano wheels with 16 spoke fonts (dura ace C24s, in particular) have VERY high front spoke tensions....

No, they do not. My DA C24 front wheel averages 90kgf as measured with my Park tension meter.

[FreaK]

YA, surprisingly low tension in my experience versus other low spoke count wheels. The older models were built a little tighter from what i remember.

[Horze]

Once the wheel is built the tension is irrelevant for a static system in equilibrium.
It's only when you start riding the wheel, the repeated pushing and pulling of the wheel that the spoke tension matters in holding the wheel together.

[FreaK]

I think that means it matters an awful lot, since wheels exist to be ridden

[FreaK]

word to the wise, I measured my Ambrosio Crono F20 ERD 611mm but the wheelbuilding process showed them to actually be an effective 614mm ERD. A little weird, but it's also not the first time Aerospeed spokes have built up different from what Spokes Calc told me they should.
I like the feel of the wheels though. They feel more solid 2x than radial for sure. The old build on these hubs was 3x rear and 2x front which makes plenty of sense but i'm digging the 2x f-r. Pics tomorrow.