Weird NDS tension

[ergott]

Internals are great. The flange spacing on the straight pull rear hub is poor. The numbers don't lie (see above). I agree that the standard flanged rear hub is fine for deeper, carbon rims for the reason you state.

In this day and age they could have changed the flange spacing to improve it. There's no excuse for such a ubiquitous hub manufacturer not to. Even if you agree with their philosophy of a narrower NDS flange which improves tension balance at the expense of lateral stiffness you can't argue with a straight face that their 16.4mm DS spacing (16mm for the SP) is well "engineered". It's a simple reprograming of the machining equipment to improve it, no downside whatsoever.

[TwiggyTN]

This ^^^^^^ I have often wondered why DT hasn't addressed this? It's very well known.

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[HermesSport]

Spoke gauge will have no impact on the tension relationship between sides. Are you dishing the wheel properly?

[stormur]

Spoke gauge will have no impact on the tension relationship between sides. Are you dishing the wheel properly?

WHAT ????

[HermesSport]

If you need 600N on the non drive side to properly dish a wheel with 1200N on the drive side, it doesn't matter if you're using revolutions on one side and 12ga pedicab spokes on the other, so long as the tension is correct.

[ergott]

Spoke gauge will have no impact on the tension relationship between sides. Are you dishing the wheel properly?

WHAT ????

You really need to study the physics of wheels. It really shows in this thread that you don't have the theoretical knowledge.

[stormur]

If someone has to study anything in this topic, it's you, and start from Physics at level 1 . Start from material properties and opposite forces.

Really.

BTW , wheels respoked to aerolites both sides : DS : 1250N , NDS 600-650N . Explain this, if you're so smart. Practically. Theoretically I can proof everything.

You wrote also you prefer T11 over 350. On other forum you posted tension balance below 50% on WI ... Expalin why below 50% is better than 50-60% which I have on 350s, please . I assume you measured scientifically lateral stifness of wheels, and you can provide us with reliable numbers ?

[ergott]

I'm not wasting anymore time with you or this. I know what I'm talking about and you are a crowd of one that disagrees with me.

If you want to theoretically proof(sic) everything start with explaining a simple vector diagram and how spoke gauge would effect it.

[Marin]

+1 on Stormy learning physics, ergott is of course right.

One more time: Did you recalibrate your tensiometer for the different gauge spokes?
No? This would also also explain why you like your readings better when you are using the same spokes left & right...

[Horze]

+1 for recalibration.
The modulus of elasticity of the spoke will affect how the spoke behaves under tension.
IMV one can only use a tensiometer properly only once they have actually mastered the art of wheel building. A tensiometer won't build the wheel for you but you could build a wheel without a tensiometer.

[WMW]

Explain this, if you're so smart. Practically. Theoretically I can proof everything.

Bad measurement.

Using lighter NDS spokes will usually reduce the chance of them going slack. Radial loads will be taken up more by the DS spokes because they are stiffer. Another way to look at it is that the NDS spokes will be stretched more at the same tension. But using different gauge spokes doesn't effect the tension ratio.

Regarding your comment about WI, the T11s were <50% ratio when they first came out, but they quickly changed that... increased the DS offset and decreased the NDS offset.

[bm0p700f]

As I have have pointed out I build with hubs that give 45% tension balance and don't get the problem stormer has so tension balance per see is not the goal it is cracked up to be be. Spoke don't break on these wheels either. Poor nds tension works if the wheel is stiff enough. If the wheel is stiffer the change in tension in reduced so it matters little if the nds tension is low. I have a set of wheels with 450N nds tension (miche hub with a dt Swiss rr415 rim 28h which a tension limit of 1100n) with laser spokes and a narrow shallow rim. I am 80+kg so if a wheel was going to loosen of spokes it would be this one. The wheel has never gone out of true just showing low nds spoke tension does not have to be a problem.

Ergot I knew the dt hubs were bad but the number you quote are even worse. Stormur just use a different hub or check everything assume nothing as something is amiss with your build. Personally I would use a different hub.
In short don't obsess about tension balance make sure the wheel is properly stress relieved and properly dished i.e the basics. Pick a hub with good bracing angles. There are plenty of hubs with good bracing angles and that show good reliability you are actually spoilt for choice, hope, white industries, miche, shimano......... and it goes on.

[ergott]

Ergot I knew the dt hubs were bad but the number you quote are even worse.

I must admit that those numbers are from wheelbuilder.com(not personally measured). His published specs for the flanged hub are pretty close so I can't imagine they are any better measured. I've also had another builder verify that DS. Once I knew that I never ordered one. As I said before, I have less issue with the flanged rear. I make up for the narrow NDS flange by using heavier gauge spokes on both sides.

[bm0p700f]

When I spoke to a dt Swiss factory rep they are expecting all road hubs to move to 135mm spacing and then they will increase the flange seperation probably all they will do is move the d's flange out.