ENVE ses 4.5 tubulars, finally...

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IchDien
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by IchDien

Grill wrote:Loads of ENVE's in the UK. I have 2 sets and I'm not the only one. The pricing works as they bridge the gap between factory wheels and Lightweights. I have loads of wheelsets in my day, and the only rims that come close to ENVE build quality are Lightweight and the Reynolds RZR. There are probably more Dogmas in the UK than anywhere else and seeing as you can get the same quality frame for ess than half the price, I just can't believe that cost is the issue with ENVE's.


I think this says more about the culture of cycling in the UK than it does about ENVE's pricing structure to be honest.

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Jesper64
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by Jesper64

I'm surprised it's taken Enve this long to release the 4.5s.

ichobi
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by ichobi

This board seems to have strong affection with Campy Bora wheels. Tell me what makes them so good after almost a decade? I know the hub is good. (Rode shamal) The new version supposed to have great braking too. But cant enve rim, ck hub, cx spoke and perhaps skilled builder match that bora quality? This is as good as a grail spec for custom wheels.

Lets leave the aero equation out for now. Malori didnt seem to have problem beating Martin and Cancellara with Bora wheels.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I'll take a stab at that. I have Boras. I've had Reynolds DVUL46 clinchers built with DT Aerolite spokes to DT Swiss 190 hubs (Rear:28 spokes, 2x) Front: 20 spokes, radial). I know these are not Enves but the hubs and spokes are a very common build option with the Enves. The bracing angle of the DT hubs is just not as good as the Boras. For whatever reason, those wheels did not seem nearly as strong or stable as the Boras. I'm attributing that to the bracing angle of hub flanges, the light flat spokes, and the rim (which I believe was too light for me). In fairness the Enve rims are very strong, and both Reynolds and Enve beefed up their light rims after 2010 and all the problems both these companies had then. But still, I've had many Campy wheels over the years, and that G3 spoke pattern has never failed me. I can't think of another wheel I'd ride with only 21 spokes in the rear. And I'm 200lbs, and like to sprint. I also don't like how wide the front ENVE rims are up front. Acutally too wide in my opinion and can cause issues with tire clearance and brake adjustments. I prefer stainless steel reaplaceable spokes as well, which both the Boras and the ENVEs would have. They catch little wind, versus say, the fatter carbon spokes of a Lightweight wheel which, in the event you do need one repaired, I hope you have some spare wheels or are prepared to wait a long time.

But the Campy hubs... yes, the hubs. The factory hubs in Boras, or other high end campy wheels (and shimano), use non-cartridge type bearings in finely machined cup and cone races. These things are just so nice to ride AND maintain. Granted the DT 190 hubs were very nice and they rolled very smoothly as well, but there's something about a perfectly adjusted cup and cone bearing that maintains it's function over a very long time that I like.

That's my 2 cents. I'd take the Boras, especially the new ones, all day long over any other wheel out there in the high end carbon offerings, custom hand built or otherwise.

Having said that, I also ride Campy Record hubs laced standard 3x DT Swiss Comp spokes (32) to Ambrosio Nemesis rims. Much less cost, but so nice to ride. Just heavier. Just don't have the bling factor, although on certain builds I think they complement the frame a lot better than a blingy high profile carbon rim can.

But... lot of choices, no one answer. Good luck.

I agree with a previous poster who was making the case for wheel built as a "system". Take the case of the Shamal rims, 3G pattern. They are not actually perfectly round before being built up. They have slight bulges between the spoking groups. But when the whole wheel is tensioned up properly, the wheel becomes perfectly round.

I don't know, as far as factory built wheels go, these are at the top of the heap in my books. And now, with the slightly wider rim, I suspect they are even more stable and fit the wider tires of today a bit better.

I actually have a set of the new Bora Ultra 35's awaiting tires and am really looking forward to testing them out soon.
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sawyer
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by sawyer

Grill wrote:Loads of ENVE's in the UK. I have 2 sets and I'm not the only one. The pricing works as they bridge the gap between factory wheels and Lightweights. I have loads of wheelsets in my day, and the only rims that come close to ENVE build quality are Lightweight and the Reynolds RZR. There are probably more Dogmas in the UK than anywhere else and seeing as you can get the same quality frame for ess than half the price, I just can't believe that cost is the issue with ENVE's.


Sorry there are not loads of ENVEs in the UK.

SW London where I live has, I'd be a confident, a higher concentration of high end road bikes than anywhere else in the UK, perhaps Europe. Combination of wealth, population density, lifestyle etc. Even there ENVEs are unusual.

They are too expensive vs the competition.

Lightweights too are extremely rare. And RZRs ...

There really isn't a gap to bridge between factory wheels and Lightweights.

That's why pros don't ride Lightweights like they used to ...
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sawyer
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by sawyer

ichobi wrote:This board seems to have strong affection with Campy Bora wheels. Tell me what makes them so good after almost a decade? I know the hub is good. (Rode shamal) The new version supposed to have great braking too. But cant enve rim, ck hub, cx spoke and perhaps skilled builder match that bora quality? This is as good as a grail spec for custom wheels.

Lets leave the aero equation out for now. Malori didnt seem to have problem beating Martin and Cancellara with Bora wheels.


So you know the hub is good, the braking is good, and we're leaving aside aero ... er ...

It's not that I think ENVEs can't be as good ... it's the price delta that's the issue

BTW, Bora has just been completely re-designed - the rim shape was dated.
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sawyer
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by sawyer

wingguy wrote:Yep, lots of Enve being sold in the UK through bricks and mortar stores. I'd also argue that they're not subject to bad depreciation because they are never being sold online at deep discount. Good luck selling a pair of used Zipps for a decent price when last year's (or even this year's) are on Wiggle at 45% off. Doesn't happen with Enve.

Having said that, they could do with losing about £100 a rim and £300 for a wheelset. Same as their finishing kit, £850ish for bar stem and post is beginning to take the piss.


Custom built kit is almost invariably subject to steep depreciation

That is just basics on how markets work - provenance concerns, non-standard product etc. All eats at re-sale

You are right though about Zipps - another fundamental about used markets is that frequent new product changes as per Zipp means the used older model suffers ...
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wingguy
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by wingguy

I'd wager the majority of Enve's sold (certainly all the ones we sell) are factory wheelsets, usually on CK, supplied fully built from Utah. You don't have to buy them as rims and I'd imagine few people do.

drewb
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by drewb

I read that the 4.5's will have a "textured braking surface". Do the existing rims (3.4 & 6.7) have the same textured surface?

I had a look at some photos and can't really tell. Any info from owners out there?

Grill
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by Grill

sawyer wrote:
Grill wrote:Loads of ENVE's in the UK. I have 2 sets and I'm not the only one. The pricing works as they bridge the gap between factory wheels and Lightweights. I have loads of wheelsets in my day, and the only rims that come close to ENVE build quality are Lightweight and the Reynolds RZR. There are probably more Dogmas in the UK than anywhere else and seeing as you can get the same quality frame for ess than half the price, I just can't believe that cost is the issue with ENVE's.


Sorry there are not loads of ENVEs in the UK.

SW London where I live has, I'd be a confident, a higher concentration of high end road bikes than anywhere else in the UK, perhaps Europe. Combination of wealth, population density, lifestyle etc. Even there ENVEs are unusual.

They are too expensive vs the competition.

Lightweights too are extremely rare. And RZRs ...

There really isn't a gap to bridge between factory wheels and Lightweights.

That's why pros don't ride Lightweights like they used to ...


There are three stores in my vicinity that stock ENVE and they sell quite well. They'll never post Mavic-like numbers, but they're a niche product. There are a decent amount of ENVE's floating about on BR and TTF, so perhaps SW London just has a higher concentration of dentists as opposed to cyclists.

Saying that they're too expensive versus the competition assumes they have competition, when in actuality they really don't. Spoke or hub issues on ENVE's, no problem. Spoke or hub issues on factory wheels, not only do you have to pay over the odds but you're also at the mercy of the factory and distributor (once had to wait 5 weeks for a Mavic Elite hub). Also, rim wear/damage are also a factor. You won't be able to easily reuse a factory hub as find a rim with the corresponding spoke pattern is next to impossible.

I know lots of people with Lightweights, but the rarity has more to do with the lack of stockists (this is because you must hold stock, pay in advance and the margins are rubbish). RZR's are a different story and the lack of them has more to do with UK road surfaces and the majority's fear of tubs.

Like I said, Lightweights are a halo product. You can get lighter and certainly more aero, but they're still not Lightweights. Remember what I said about Dogmas?

Actually pros don't ride Lightweights because A) they have to pay for them out of their own pocket, B) hitting the UCI weight limit is no longer an issue and C) most wheels they have access to are more aero than LW. The exception to this is the Autobahn which you'll still see under a lot of BMC rides as well as the occasional other Pro such as Contador. If you watch grand tour mountain stages you'll notice that many of the GC contenders are using handbuilt wheels with Tune Skyline or AX SRT-24 rims, so need for LW's.

sawyer
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by sawyer

Grill wrote:
sawyer wrote:
Grill wrote:Loads of ENVE's in the UK. I have 2 sets and I'm not the only one. The pricing works as they bridge the gap between factory wheels and Lightweights. I have loads of wheelsets in my day, and the only rims that come close to ENVE build quality are Lightweight and the Reynolds RZR. There are probably more Dogmas in the UK than anywhere else and seeing as you can get the same quality frame for ess than half the price, I just can't believe that cost is the issue with ENVE's.


Sorry there are not loads of ENVEs in the UK.

SW London where I live has, I'd be a confident, a higher concentration of high end road bikes than anywhere else in the UK, perhaps Europe. Combination of wealth, population density, lifestyle etc. Even there ENVEs are unusual.

They are too expensive vs the competition.

Lightweights too are extremely rare. And RZRs ...

There really isn't a gap to bridge between factory wheels and Lightweights.

That's why pros don't ride Lightweights like they used to ...


There are three stores in my vicinity that stock ENVE and they sell quite well. They'll never post Mavic-like numbers, but they're a niche product. There are a decent amount of ENVE's floating about on BR and TTF, so perhaps SW London just has a higher concentration of dentists as opposed to cyclists.

Saying that they're too expensive versus the competition assumes they have competition, when in actuality they really don't. Spoke or hub issues on ENVE's, no problem. Spoke or hub issues on factory wheels, not only do you have to pay over the odds but you're also at the mercy of the factory and distributor (once had to wait 5 weeks for a Mavic Elite hub). Also, rim wear/damage are also a factor. You won't be able to easily reuse a factory hub as find a rim with the corresponding spoke pattern is next to impossible.

I know lots of people with Lightweights, but the rarity has more to do with the lack of stockists (this is because you must hold stock, pay in advance and the margins are rubbish). RZR's are a different story and the lack of them has more to do with UK road surfaces and the majority's fear of tubs.

Like I said, Lightweights are a halo product. You can get lighter and certainly more aero, but they're still not Lightweights. Remember what I said about Dogmas?

Actually pros don't ride Lightweights because A) they have to pay for them out of their own pocket, B) hitting the UCI weight limit is no longer an issue and C) most wheels they have access to are more aero than LW. The exception to this is the Autobahn which you'll still see under a lot of BMC rides as well as the occasional other Pro such as Contador. If you watch grand tour mountain stages you'll notice that many of the GC contenders are using handbuilt wheels with Tune Skyline or AX SRT-24 rims, so need for LW's.


LOL at the dentist comment - er perhaps not ...

You are unusual and lucky in "knowing lots of people with Lightweights" ! My club has 600+ members and dozens of Cat 1 and Cat 2s and there would only be a handful of LWs.

ENVE don't have competitors ... of course they do. It's a bicycle wheel. You're overthinking the value that even most committed WWs/part enthusiasts attach to a wheel coming in lots of pieces and being put together by a local shop

On your last point, there was more Lightweight riding - at least among GC boys - when there was no UCI weight limit, for obvious reasons. LWs used to have a big advantage over other wheels, and for that pros would shell out, but that advantage has essentially gone now, so they don't. If the UCI removed any weight limit we might see a few more.

Most pros ride factory wheels. Contador you mentioned rode 202s for more of his career than any other wheelset. No doubt Zedtechs carefully fettled by his man.

Frome on skylines etc is the exception.
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kode54
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by kode54

i have a few wheelsets...including Enve, Lightweight and the RZR. out of all of them, the Enve's have been my most reliable wheels to date. one set of Lightweights cracked and both wheels set for crash replacement to CarbonSport in Germany. the RZR i don't ride often...mainly because of them being tubulars. i mostly ride in group rides...and i don't have the experience to roll on a tub after a flat. so its more of a technical issue on my part, although i do ride them on occasion. that said, the Enve's take a beating as i ride on rough roads where i would be very cautious with the Lightweights now....being that they cost twice as much as the Enve's. i'm done after this set of Lightweights...and i am not a dentist.
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wingguy
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by wingguy

sawyer wrote:ENVE don't have competitors ... of course they do. It's a bicycle wheel. You're overthinking the value that even most committed WWs/part enthusiasts attach to a wheel coming in lots of pieces and being put together by a local shop


Um, maybe you missed it earlier but you can buy Enve's as factory wheelset built in Utah (or by Powertap). It's just that they use off the shelf parts rather than proprietary.

tharmor
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by tharmor

Has anyone thought that maybe the introduction of the 4.5 is primarily due to Enve sponsoring a world tour team (MTN Qhubeka) and with the UCI whispering to be limiting the rim depths in the peloton? According to the article about the topic a few months (years?) back, the maximum depth was reported to be 55mm (or maybe 60mm - I cannot remember). Just a thought.

*edit to add another thought*

One thing that should be pointed out as well is that Enve sells these rims separately, so in theory one could run a 4.7, or a 3.9. Given the weight of the rider, the stock pairings may not suit everyone. I think this move was wise on Enve's behalf.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I think the 4.5 is simply a very sought after profile and ENVE want a piece of that market. They look good on a lot of bikes. They're popular. People like bling, The 50'ish mm profile makes a bike kinda pop, moreso than the lower profiles. At the end of the day it's about what sells, and that is a sellable profile.
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