So I am looking at investing in two sets of custom built wheels - to be used for racing and fair weather riding/training. I've landed in this position after never really being totally satisfied with the wheelsets I have used to date, mostly from a stiffness (or lack of) and practicality point of view. I loved the Mavic Cosmic Ultimates I had, I could live them being tubular but I couldn't ever really feel comfortable with the non repairable nature of the wheelset in the event of an accident/mishap similar to the Lightweight Ventoux sitting in my shed. I also really liked the ride of the Shimano C50's but felt they could be a little stiffer in the rear. I am a solid build currently sitting at 92kg which goes up and down depending on my activity and climbing or sprinting out of the saddle I can get brake rub on most rear wheels which is something I would like to avoid if possible. Interestingly my set of Fulcrum Zero's are probably the best in this regard. While I would like to be smaller I do tend to bulk up when training for other sports so realistically this will be my standard weight.
I am toying with the idea of moving away from factory wheelsets and investing in custom. Stiffness and ride feel are my primary concerns with weight a consideration of course. I think I have pretty much decided on using White Industries T11 for the hubs, unless someone can make a compelling argument for a different hub that will create a better bracing angle and retain the same build quality - the price, reliability and little bit of bling factor tips them over for the win at the moment, coupled with their availability locally. It is in the next choices I would like some guidance.
Number of Spokes - I don't know if I am going overkill here but was considering a 32 Rear and 28 Front count? Possibly getting them tied and soldered.
Type of spokes - is there a noticeable difference in stiffness from say double butted to bladed? Possibly Bladed Front and NDS Rear with Double Butted for the Drive side?
Rims - With two sets I was most likely going for a 50-60mm profile and 20-30mm profile so I could switch between the two and mix and match depending on conditions. Looking at 23mm U Shape carbon rims with the basalt brake track coating and custom drilling.
Thoughts? Opinions? They certainly won't be superlight but then I don't have a climbers build, I'm more after a decent, usable weight with great stiffness and reliability.
For reference - wheelsets I have used are: Shimano C50, Ultegra, Dura Ace C24, Mavic Cosmic Ultimate, Cosmic SLR, R-Sys SLR, Fulcrum Zero, Powertap 32h with White Industries T11 28f (impressed me so much hence considering more custom, not as stiff in the rear as the Fulcrums), Token C30A, Lightweight Ventoux
Stiff Custom Build - Component Selection Help
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You can build-up a really nice set that cannot easily be replicated by buying a stock offering. The beauty is that you can pick-and-choose what you like.
I would recommend starting with one of the 'factory' hubs. For rims, you have a pretty big choice to make, which defines the nature of the wheelset. For a race set, I would recommend a deep or mod-deep rim. Since you're building them up from scratch, you can do a 60/90 pair pretty easily. For the training set, you can also choose to run an alloy rim, which will give you a really durable and versatile set. For spokes, I like Sapim. The CX-Rays are really strong spokes, so I wouldn't recommend the whole tying and soldering routine anymore (except maybe for track).
I run a few sets of 'pave' wheels. Starting with Record and Dura-Ace hubs, I build them with Ambrosio Nemesis 32s and lace them with Sapims. With those 32s, you'll have a massively strong, stiff wheelset. Shoe them with FMB or Dugast, voila!
I would recommend starting with one of the 'factory' hubs. For rims, you have a pretty big choice to make, which defines the nature of the wheelset. For a race set, I would recommend a deep or mod-deep rim. Since you're building them up from scratch, you can do a 60/90 pair pretty easily. For the training set, you can also choose to run an alloy rim, which will give you a really durable and versatile set. For spokes, I like Sapim. The CX-Rays are really strong spokes, so I wouldn't recommend the whole tying and soldering routine anymore (except maybe for track).
I run a few sets of 'pave' wheels. Starting with Record and Dura-Ace hubs, I build them with Ambrosio Nemesis 32s and lace them with Sapims. With those 32s, you'll have a massively strong, stiff wheelset. Shoe them with FMB or Dugast, voila!
Tying and soldering does not make wheels stiffer.
Larger cross section (deeper or wider) rims are stiffer and do not need as many spokes as small cross section rims to make a stiff wheel. A 24/28 set on deep section rims may be about the same as 28/32 on shallow rims.
White Ind hubs are good durable hubs with good geometry. So are Shimano hubs.
CX-rays are good but other than the aero section there's no benefit over Sapim Lasers that cost 1/3 as much. I use Lasers (and sometimes thicker Race) on my training wheels.
Larger cross section (deeper or wider) rims are stiffer and do not need as many spokes as small cross section rims to make a stiff wheel. A 24/28 set on deep section rims may be about the same as 28/32 on shallow rims.
White Ind hubs are good durable hubs with good geometry. So are Shimano hubs.
CX-rays are good but other than the aero section there's no benefit over Sapim Lasers that cost 1/3 as much. I use Lasers (and sometimes thicker Race) on my training wheels.
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bm0p700f
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Sugested builds all with sapim laser spokes front/NDS and Sapim Race DS rear with brass nipples. CX-rays spokes will add cost but are the same weight as laser spokes. the alloy nipples they come with though are lighter.
clincher
24F/28R Pacenti SL23 rims on Shimano Dura Ace hubs weight 1580g and it will be very stiff.
24F/28R Pacenti SL23 rims on WI T11 hubs weight 1555g similar stiffness to the above.
24F/28R H Plus son Archetype on the same hubs as above add 70g
24F/28R HED belgium+ rims on the same hubs same weight as archetype build but more expensive, stiffer and oh my what a rim.
All of the above clincher builds are tubeless compatible (The archetype rim works fine with tubeless tyres) and will give a good ride due to the wide rims.
Tubular
24F/28R HED belgium C2 tubular rims on DA or SI T11 hubs weight ~1610g and on my what a rim (I have a set of 28F/28R C2 rim on silver Record hubs and they are lovely. Stiff too.
32F/32R Ambrosio Nemesis rims black sapim race spokes Campagnolo Record hubs. This wheelset is very stiff and weight is 1740g with a campagnolo freehub or 1775g with a steel shimano freehub fitted.
You can use cheaper hubs in these builds like Miche Primato's for example and if you can live with the weight penelty then they will do the job just fine. the WI and DA hubs though (along with record) are hubs for life. Don't discount Royce if you don't mind silver.
clincher
24F/28R Pacenti SL23 rims on Shimano Dura Ace hubs weight 1580g and it will be very stiff.
24F/28R Pacenti SL23 rims on WI T11 hubs weight 1555g similar stiffness to the above.
24F/28R H Plus son Archetype on the same hubs as above add 70g
24F/28R HED belgium+ rims on the same hubs same weight as archetype build but more expensive, stiffer and oh my what a rim.
All of the above clincher builds are tubeless compatible (The archetype rim works fine with tubeless tyres) and will give a good ride due to the wide rims.
Tubular
24F/28R HED belgium C2 tubular rims on DA or SI T11 hubs weight ~1610g and on my what a rim (I have a set of 28F/28R C2 rim on silver Record hubs and they are lovely. Stiff too.
32F/32R Ambrosio Nemesis rims black sapim race spokes Campagnolo Record hubs. This wheelset is very stiff and weight is 1740g with a campagnolo freehub or 1775g with a steel shimano freehub fitted.
You can use cheaper hubs in these builds like Miche Primato's for example and if you can live with the weight penelty then they will do the job just fine. the WI and DA hubs though (along with record) are hubs for life. Don't discount Royce if you don't mind silver.
Great information - thank you very much.
Seems 32/28 combo is a bit overkill by what is suggested bm0p700f - those suggestions would make a great training wheel. Do you have any opinions on carbon rims? Suggestions
Hub wise I would like to invest in some hubs for life, seems my initial thoughts on White Industries have been confirmed. Spokes also will most likely be laser/race combo.
I'm a little confused as to the purpose of 'tie and soldering'? Most of the stuff I have read has included the following: Had used regularly, benefit for the track, especially coming off the banks,
during sprints (lateral pressure) and same for starts in T.T. Tied and soldered the spokes: The wire does the work, and the solder keeps it in place. Why do we tie & solder? It hardens the wheels up in all dimensions. By tying & soldering them, it effectively increases the flange diameter of the hubs, increasing torsional stiffness. The interlaced crosses are locked together when you tie & solder them, which braces the spokes, making them laterally stiffer and more durable. You can still re-true wheels that are T&S. That's just a little snap shot, as I have very little experience in wheel building I am keen to learn why this might not be the case? If it's not why was it done?
Again thanks for all the information so far it's been very helpful.
Seems 32/28 combo is a bit overkill by what is suggested bm0p700f - those suggestions would make a great training wheel. Do you have any opinions on carbon rims? Suggestions
Hub wise I would like to invest in some hubs for life, seems my initial thoughts on White Industries have been confirmed. Spokes also will most likely be laser/race combo.
I'm a little confused as to the purpose of 'tie and soldering'? Most of the stuff I have read has included the following: Had used regularly, benefit for the track, especially coming off the banks,
during sprints (lateral pressure) and same for starts in T.T. Tied and soldered the spokes: The wire does the work, and the solder keeps it in place. Why do we tie & solder? It hardens the wheels up in all dimensions. By tying & soldering them, it effectively increases the flange diameter of the hubs, increasing torsional stiffness. The interlaced crosses are locked together when you tie & solder them, which braces the spokes, making them laterally stiffer and more durable. You can still re-true wheels that are T&S. That's just a little snap shot, as I have very little experience in wheel building I am keen to learn why this might not be the case? If it's not why was it done?
Again thanks for all the information so far it's been very helpful.
AndreLM wrote:Are 24/28 belgium+ available as rim only?
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http://www.wheelbuilder.com/hed-belgium ... r-rim.html
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bm0p700f
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Yep HED rims are available I have several wheel builder do too. The OP is at (what I consider) the upper weight range for 28 spoke rear wheel for something that will do high miles (10000+). The OP could even use a 20 spoke front without issue.
I think the HED build on the DA hubs is the stiffest but they are all so stiff you will flex the frame before flexing the wheels. The HED rims also look lovely
Tying and soldering does none of what is claimed, it can't if you think about it. Test have been done by josh brandt I think which debunked it all. I was done because people believed it worked, some poeple choose to believe still even though there is evidence to say no your wrong. Also physic is against any who think's tying and soldering works I would love to hear an explaination of how a bit of solder and wire turn two spokes into a rigid structure like a flange so the PCD of the flange is effecitively increased. Just thinking about it make no sense.
I think the HED build on the DA hubs is the stiffest but they are all so stiff you will flex the frame before flexing the wheels. The HED rims also look lovely
Tying and soldering does none of what is claimed, it can't if you think about it. Test have been done by josh brandt I think which debunked it all. I was done because people believed it worked, some poeple choose to believe still even though there is evidence to say no your wrong. Also physic is against any who think's tying and soldering works I would love to hear an explaination of how a bit of solder and wire turn two spokes into a rigid structure like a flange so the PCD of the flange is effecitively increased. Just thinking about it make no sense.
Here's Jobst's test: http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/tiednsoldered.htm
The only valid reason I can think of for tying and soldering is to keep broken spokes in place while racing. In case you can't get a replacement wheel.
The only valid reason I can think of for tying and soldering is to keep broken spokes in place while racing. In case you can't get a replacement wheel.
Excellent Stuff regarding tying and soldering - always glad to receive more knowledge, especially as I am not in any way shape or form an engineer with knowledge on these things. Will not be getting this done after reading some more info regarding Jobst's and others testing.
For those in the know - and most likely getting slightly off topic - are bladed spokes 'less stiff' than round? For example CX-Ray compared to Laser? Do the bladed spokes offer a perceptible advantage in regards to aerodynamics? For example useing bladed in the front wheel where stiffness requirements appear to be much less but gaining a slight aero advantage? Asking as I want to be able to use both sets for racing, hence my interest in carbon rims and the deeper profiles. HED Belgium would be my ultimate training wheel, maybe I need 3 sets???
Again thank you for all the suggestions and information - I really want to nail down what will best fit my requirements and tickle my fancy aesthetics wise as I plan on these being used for a very long time.
For those in the know - and most likely getting slightly off topic - are bladed spokes 'less stiff' than round? For example CX-Ray compared to Laser? Do the bladed spokes offer a perceptible advantage in regards to aerodynamics? For example useing bladed in the front wheel where stiffness requirements appear to be much less but gaining a slight aero advantage? Asking as I want to be able to use both sets for racing, hence my interest in carbon rims and the deeper profiles. HED Belgium would be my ultimate training wheel, maybe I need 3 sets???
Again thank you for all the suggestions and information - I really want to nail down what will best fit my requirements and tickle my fancy aesthetics wise as I plan on these being used for a very long time.
My understanding is that the bladed spokes offer the same stiffness as round spokes with the same cross section area. CX-rays are made from Lasers, with the center section flattened. So they have the same stiffness as Lasers (which have small diameter center sections and are thus not as stiff as larger diameter spokes).
There is an aero advantage and if I remember right it's not insignificant compared to other aero factors in wheels. But to me putting aero spokes on a non aero rim seems sort of silly.
There is an aero advantage and if I remember right it's not insignificant compared to other aero factors in wheels. But to me putting aero spokes on a non aero rim seems sort of silly.
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Eric - great little summary. At this stage I fairly certain the builds will be as follows:
50/60mm U Shape 23mm wide carbon rims/White Industries T11 32 Rear 28 Front/Sapim CX-Ray front spokes/Sapim Laser RNDS/Sapim Race RDS.
30/40mm U Shape 23mm wide carbon rims/White Industries T11 32 Rear 28 Front/Sapim CX-Ray front spokes/Sapim Laser RNDS/Sapim Race RDS.
Going for a larger spoke count simply as I would like to err towards stiffer than not stiff enough. Also depending on pricing may simply switch the Lasers out for CX-Ray's and run the Race's for the RDS.
Now what about lacing patterns? Radial front? 2x or 3x rear? Brass or aluminium nipples?
Getting a little excited now
50/60mm U Shape 23mm wide carbon rims/White Industries T11 32 Rear 28 Front/Sapim CX-Ray front spokes/Sapim Laser RNDS/Sapim Race RDS.
30/40mm U Shape 23mm wide carbon rims/White Industries T11 32 Rear 28 Front/Sapim CX-Ray front spokes/Sapim Laser RNDS/Sapim Race RDS.
Going for a larger spoke count simply as I would like to err towards stiffer than not stiff enough. Also depending on pricing may simply switch the Lasers out for CX-Ray's and run the Race's for the RDS.
Now what about lacing patterns? Radial front? 2x or 3x rear? Brass or aluminium nipples?
Getting a little excited now
