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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:04 pm 
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Posts: 47
From what I know of the costs of the components, which is a lot, and from my experience building with the hubs and rims used, which is also a lot, what BDop is charging for these things is a bargain and a half, and the rims and hubs are great. In addition to putting some hundreds of the rim out in the field and having people love it, we bench tested it to be stiff and build into very stiff and strong wheels. They are round and straight, the joint is good, and if you know what you're doing they build into nice wheels. They're a small bit heavier than many of the rims that are more in vogue at the moment. We've used thousands of the hubs and had exactly 1 turn out bad (it ate bearings - no catastrophic failures).

Our assertion that most of the aerodynamics happens in the front wasn't something we just pulled out of our butts. It's been tested many many different times in many different ways. Sometimes you have to read a little bit deeper into things than what's on the surface or what you are being led to look at. An example of this would be where a company tests three setups: wheels built with (shallower) rim A front and rear, wheels built with rim A front and (deeper) rim B rear, and wheels built with rim B front and rear. The rim A wheels have good results, and the rim A/rim B wheels have very slightly better results, but the rim B set is a sizable chunk faster again. The story in there is clear to see. Unfortunately the story was a little too clear to see, so a bunch of the stuff on which showed it is now much harder to find.

Velonews has also addressed this head on, but I can't dig out the link right now. We don't pull stuff out of our butts. Until we had our wheels tested in the tunnel and proved that Rails were fast, we simply didn't make statements about this wheel is faster than that or whatever. It's not reasonable or responsible to do so.

We are back in the wind tunnel this month to do a new round of tests, including more stuff that no one else has apparently done, or at least published. Lots of testing lately.

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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:04 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:37 am 
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NovemberDave wrote:
We are back in the wind tunnel this month to do a new round of tests, including more stuff that no one else has apparently done, or at least published. Lots of testing lately.


Dave, I would love to see how some of the fashionable wide AL rims stack up in the wind tunnel. Last time around you used the Velocity A23 but I have a feeling the newer, deeper rims would fair better compared to the carbon clinchers.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:17 pm 
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Location: Long Beach California
The BDop kit would be a good value if you got undamaged first run parts - I know a little bit about this kit from firsthand experience.

I'll start from the beginning, I was looking for a wheel-set for my recently acquired road-bike. Having made my living as a mechanic, though not a bicycle mechanic, for the last 31 years I was totally open to putting together one from a kit.

BTW love to read about all the things that make cycling the most fun form of exercise that I’ve never known about until recently - appreciate all the articles and information sharing. :)

The kit arrives under-packaged for what's become the normal tough handling you just have to assume it will see, especially on this type of journey. Don't expect professionally designed packaging with a polystyrene or expanded foam buffer protecting your rims. They will be subject to whatever external forces are placed on them and if they're damaged, expect to encounter plausible deniability from the seller - I'll explain later.

My package was a bit beat-up so I was curious to see how everything survived. I photographed and carefully unpacked it. Straight away I noticed one rim had a gouge type scratch across the braking surface, the metal around the rim joints was a bit wobbly, grind marks are visible under the anodizing plus there are small bare areas were the anodizing process missed. The rims don't lay flat when laid upon each other plus a few millimeter difference in roundness.

There is a wide variance between the beveled spoke recesses in the hubs - this will cause some spoke heads to sit proud and low due to under and over-drilling. Also the front hub looks as if it was laced up before, there are indentations exactly where and similar to that made by tensioned spoke heads.

I read a review after I purchased these where the guy complains about the machining on these hubs. Well, that’s because they don’t use much machining. These aren’t made from billet, the flanges have seams and the spoke holes are punched, not drilled. These aren’t quality pieces I assure you. Fit and finish on this set is well below the three low-end wheelsets I have on hand - one is my original Alex rims with OEM brand Concept hubs, the other is on my son’s Bike’s Direct Motobecane with Vuelta XRP Pro’s (sold online for $150 a set) the third is an FSA set.

I told BDop I could live with the scratches but was interested in fixing the hubs, then it got a little weird because they made an issue out of the scratches. BDop said I must have done it when I opened the box. I showed them the photographs of the opened box so they could see how careful I was. Their response? You must have done it after the box was open then. How can they make this claim with such certainty? Because they package & store the wheels in a humid environment two weeks in advance of shipping and there would have been oxidation over the scratches if it was done before it was boxed! I offered to pay a metallurgist to examine the rims to get an honest expert opinion. The response? Crickets.

About the hubs - no immediate offer to correct even after showing them the pictures, they said they have other hubs on the shelf that aren’t much better than mine. After emailing back and forth they made an offer to consider replacing them if I were to pay for shipping and send them back. No guaranties even though they can clearly see from the pictures there are mfg irregularities with them.

This purchase turned out to be a very bad decision on my part on nearly every level, definitely not worth the hassle, there are far better options out there.

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Last edited by notherwtweenie on Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:31 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:39 pm 
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Location: Long Beach California
Your "new" BDop wheelset arrives...
Image

Image

If it has damage they will want to blame the shipper. If you point out the box wasn't punctured by the shipper they will blame you!
Image

Image

Compare the spoke hole bevels - some have them some do not!
Image

Look ma, no bevels!
Image

Front hub - note the raised material around the spoke holes similar to that of what tensioned spokes would make - are these reconditioned?
Image

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False accusations reflect more on the accuser than the accused.
Everything can be taken from you including your life...except your honor and integrity, that you must give away.


Last edited by notherwtweenie on Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:42 pm 
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
That definetly wasn't my experience with the kit. I got brand new debadged hubs and brand new rims. Perhaps contact them, there might have been a mix up.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:37 am 
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Location: Long Beach California
I know, I was encouraged by your report. Not blaming in the least, very much appreciate these type of reports, good or bad. I definitely got one with irregularities. They've looked at the same pictures posted above and more. The "offer" is that I pay for and ship the hubs to Taiwan for inspection - no promise of warranty. They can reject warranty and I must pay for return shipping too.

Seems they know how to minimize their warranty claims and it isn't by delivering a quality product or standing behind it! :roll:

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False accusations reflect more on the accuser than the accused.
Everything can be taken from you including your life...except your honor and integrity, that you must give away.


Last edited by notherwtweenie on Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:45 am 
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
They stood behind my product, I didn't receive quick release skewers, I contacted them and the had it express shipped to me immediately at no cost! Very happy with their service to me

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:48 am
Posts: 102
Location: Taiwan
Well, this should be interesting.

I have spoken to and rerread all of the email exchanges between yourself and the representative dealing with you.

First, the packing involves 5 layers are cardboard, two layers of plastic and two layers of bubble wrap. The rims are individually wrapped. All parts are taped inside a seperate box so nothing is floating around. All of the items in the small box are individually wrapped in bubble wrap. All of the packing was designed and made specifically for shipping these kits.

Yes, the boxes take a beating. Welcome to shipping. To date, we have not had a single claim -EVER - on any product we have ever shipped because of insufficient packaging. We did have a forklift stab a set of carbon wheels once but I really don't think our packaging was to blame.

From the very first email where Timothy asked you what we needed to do to make this right with you to our offering in subsequent emails to replace the hubs we repeatedly tried to address your concerns. Again, we offered to replace the hubs in your kit.

For the record and as we stated clearly shipping was at OUR expense, if the hubs were deemed a warranty, as is stated in our terms and conditions. This was stated clearly to you. You would not be out of pocket for shipping.

I thought the statement in your email regarding sending a the rims to a metallurgist to inspect and date the scratches we just a sarcastic rant as did Timithy when he read it. Neither felt this required a serious response. We still don't.

Regarding the scratches on the rim, after reviewing your photos I also concluded that they were made by a case cutter, by a right handed person while opening the inner cardboard layers of the shipment. Since the outer layers of the cardboard are completely intact and there is nothing floating around inside the box that could possible gouge an alloy rim...twice...and due to the fact that the gouges look very, very fresh I stand behind the original assessment made by Timothy.

I also agreed with the suggestion that a little steel wool would alleviated the problem and that after a few rides the scratch would not even be noticeable as they are on the brake track. At this point we asked what we could do to help you feel better about your purchase. Timothy suggested a partial refund to me and I agreed.

But it didn't stop there so we waited.

As to storing boxes in a humid environment, we are in the tropics. EVERYTHING that ever comes from this part of the world deals with humidity. Factories are not air conditioned. Warehouses are not air conditioned. Trucks are not air conditioned. Trains are not air conditioned. Cargo containers are not air conditioned.

Hot and humid is kind of our thing.

And the hubs they are not reconditioned or rejects as you suggested in your first email. They are new, directly from the factory. We have worked with Novatec for seven years. Why would we do something as boned headed as to sell reconditioned hubs as new and jeopardize our business relationship?

Your analysis of the impact of the anomalies around the spoke holes is overstated. For example, if you unlace a wheel that has been built and ridden for a while you will see scaring and stretching of all the spoke holes on the hub. I ain't pretty but that's what happens. If you are carefull, you can lace that old hub into a new wheel as long as you use the same spoke pattern with no ill effect. People do it all the time.

We did agree that the bevelling didn't look great and that was why we wanted to see the hubs in person. If there was an issue we wanted to take the hub shells to the factory. We also wanted the lot number from the hub for the same reason. If this was a developing problem we wanted to get it sorted, now.

In short, we were going to replace the hubs and refund your shipping once the hubs arrived in our office and we confirmed with our eyes what we were seeing in the photos. This is what was told to you.

We have tried to address your concerns, several times, in private emails. We have asked you outright what would make you happy. We asked you more than once to return the hubs for warranty replacements. You have not replied to any of these requests.

So again, what can we do to make you happy?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:42 am 
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if you scratched the rim yourself when you were cutting, I didn't do this myself but I did scratch the rims with my spokes when I was building. It looks like these rims are easily scratched so it might have been careless opening of the bubble wrap/box

No offence, but looking at your post count, did you sign up specifically to shill against BDop? I've bought from these guys many times before and they have been trouble free and treated me well when I did have trouble.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:09 am 
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Location: Long Beach California
istigatrice, I've already assured BDop that the rims weren't scratched with a box cutter, like I said I have pictures of the opened packaging, heck, I still have all the original packaging so no problem sharing what was cut and where.

I'm posting here because this is where my research landed me when looking for info on the set. Don't take personal offense to my negative review and don't let it diminish in any way your enjoyment of your kit.

Bob, you could have emailed me, I don't mind doing this online or responding line by line and posting more photos but it's not in your interest. I asked for a refund in the emails, I guess you didn't see that.

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Everything can be taken from you including your life...except your honor and integrity, that you must give away.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:45 am 
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Location: Taiwan
notherwtweenie wrote:
istigatrice, I've already assured BDop that the rims weren't scratched with a box cutter, like I said I have pictures of the opened packaging, heck, I still have all the original packaging so no problem sharing what was cut and where.

I'm posting here because this is where my research landed me when looking for info on the set. Don't take personal offense to my negative review and don't let it diminish in any way your enjoyment of your kit.

Bob, you could have emailed me, I don't mind doing this online or responding line by line and posting more photos but it's not in your interest. I asked for a refund in the emails, I guess you didn't see that.


Yes. I did. We did respond. You wrote 06 Aug (you time) and we responded 07 Aug (our time). You did not respond to that email.

If you would like to now respond to the email we can go from there. If you would like to continue with a line by line public shaming we can also go that route but I doubt the outcomes will be the same.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:42 am 
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BobDopolina wrote:
....

Regarding the scratches on the rim, after reviewing your photos I also concluded that they were made by a case cutter, by a right handed person while opening the inner cardboard layers of the shipment. Since the outer layers of the cardboard are completely intact and there is nothing floating around inside the box that could possible gouge an alloy rim...twice...and due to the fact that the gouges look very, very fresh I stand behind the original assessment made by Timothy.

....


I'm not an expert but I would think a box cutter scratch would be less deep, less blunt, and more straight than this.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:28 pm 
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notherwtweenie you got a really good photo camera :P nice macro shoot of the braking track, beside off the scratch, i'd never seen a brake track that close. I find it quite aesthetic.

I think that scratch seem bigger because of this super macro picture. Looking at the first picture, I would also say that the scratch can be caused by a case cutter.
On the second super macro picture, the scratch seems big but check at the anodized part of the rim, you can also see finish defect in this finish and for sure in person this type of finish seems really shiny and slick.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:46 pm 
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The camera is just a little compact job that fits in your shirt pocket (canon sd1400) the close-up photo is untouched but digitally zoomed for detail.

With the detail I thought it would be clear I shouldn't use steel wool to take the scratch out - you'd have to remove material as deep as the scratch to make it gone. It won't go away "after the first ride" either b/c it's as deep as the machining and the machining doesn't go away anytime soon. Far better just to forget about it IMO and that's what I planned on doing. It's somewhat frustrating to be accused of doing it when I know full well I didn't.

Them dating the scratches from a regular photo was another window into the character of the BDop organization. In that photo the scratch was reflecting light and the machined surface wasn't so the scratch had a brightness to it. They wouldn't hear it though and pronounced the scratches as "fresh". Still do. Sheesh.

Yeah on the anodizing over the scratch. Is this a smoking gun? Did the scratch come first THEN the anodizing?

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Everything can be taken from you including your life...except your honor and integrity, that you must give away.


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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:46 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:17 pm 
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Location: Taiwan
notherwtweenie wrote:
With the detail I thought it would be clear I shouldn't use steel wool to take the scratch out - you'd have to remove material as deep as the scratch to make it gone.


Do NOT sand out the scratch until it is gone. That would create a low spot on the brake track and generate pulsing.

As we suggested, you simply need to debur the scratch so it doesn't bite your brake pad each time around. Once that is done you will never feel the scratches again. And you will add more through normal wear and tear.

notherwtweenie wrote:
Yeah on the anodizing over the scratch. Is this a smoking gun? Did the scratch come first THEN the anodizing?


Don't quit your day job.

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