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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:43 pm 
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Wmv I'm not entirely sure; however my recent experiences with my carbon clinchers supports what I've read that cc+latex is no good. With two different brands (Vittoria and challenge) of latex tubes I had 4 tubes blow with both veloflex 25mm and 27mm paves after rather short periods. I always check that the tube is fully inside the tire and not pinched and I use velox cloth rim strips. Two tubes blew within minutes of initial inflation and the others happened within 50miles of riding and racing (once under my girlfriend in a crit which is when I finally gave up!).

On regular butyl tubes I have around 1200miles with no problems again using both brands of tires. So perhaps I'm just very unlucky but from my end they seem like a bad match.

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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:57 pm 
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petepeterson wrote:
Not much to add to this discussion other than:

https://twitter.com/cipothelionking/status/460219233234739200


I tend to agree

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Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:57 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:44 am 
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i like to put tubeless on carbon clinchers. seems as good as tubular if not better and easier to deal with. the carbons are definitely stiffer for a similar or lighter weight, too. some lighter guys may actually prefer aluminum due to that. the SL23 alu rim are also very good for example.


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 8:28 am 
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http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/arti ... now-41027/

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 3:35 pm 
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kgt wrote:
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/angryasian-establish-carbon-clincher-test-standards-now-41027/


I have a dumb question. Why doesn't the same problem (heat dissipation) affect tubular carbon rims?


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 4:48 pm 
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What happens to the clincher rim is that the sidewalls softens just a little,
enough for the tire to blow out. Its like if you pump a tire to hard on a good rim, eventually it pops off.
The only thing that can happen to tubular is that the glue can soften but
honestly apart from one particular crash years ago I had not heard of any in the last 5 years or more.
Considering nearly all in the pro peloton uses tubs and are on camera a lot that says something.

Please note that there have been an evolution on carbon clinchers and new ones are supposedly better.
Old ones (2-3 years or more) only use for flatter roads and there should not be any problems.

I can imagine new heat resilient resins are guarded trade secrets not available to everyone so
if you do intend go to the mountains in the summer make sure to pick a brand name that stands by their
products. I would!

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:01 pm 
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shoopdawoop wrote:
Two tubes blew within minutes of initial inflation and the others happened within 50miles of riding and racing (once under my girlfriend in a crit which is when I finally gave up!).


When you say "tubes blew" what exactly do you mean?

The tube is under near zero stress when it is contained by the rim and tire when it is properly installed. It won't "blow" unless something happens to this container.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:19 pm 
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I descended diablo more then a few times.. By myself not much of an issue because I use the brakes less... But in a semi fast escorted group I was on the brakes constantly because of slower descenders... Didn't notice my enves getting all that hot


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:35 pm 
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Max Gravity wrote:
What happens to the clincher rim is that the sidewalls softens just a little,
enough for the tire to blow out. Its like if you pump a tire to hard on a good rim, eventually it pops off.


Many clincher rims suffered from warped brake tracks due to overheating. The tubular rims probably suffered from this less often because the brake track is less stressed by the tire. Also, tubular users are much more likely to be experienced riders who are aware of the dangers of overheating.

Tires blowing off is a different issue and is usually not associated with overheating. If high temperature are involved, the scenario you mention is a possible contributor, but I think it is more likely that the tire beads soften and became lose... and most likely *that* won't cause a problem on its own but rather is the point where a pinched tube finally pushes the tire off.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 9:31 pm 
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Its not like a pulsing brake is the problem.
In my experience and others is that the sidewall gets soft enough for the tire to unhook.
Whats happens then is a big bang after that it is kind of hard to see...

But the inner tube have a long hole in it and you loose all air instantly.
If the tire lifts up or the tube finds it way out between rim and tire I don't know.

Hint for a cool YouTube clip: old carbon clincher rim, hot-air gun and a high speed camera.
Don't forget earplugs and safety goggles.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 12:27 am 
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Location: Perth, Western Australia
Here is rant by Angry Asian (Bikeradar) on carbon clinchers.
http://www.bikeradar.com/au/road/gear/a ... now-41027/

I currently run some 2008 Zipp 404's with alloy brake tracks weighing 1660g compared to the weight of some current carbon clinchers:
Zipp 404 Carbon Clincher 2014 1620g
Enve 6.7 clincher 1566g
Mavic Cosmic Carbone SLR 1595g
Bontrager Aeolus 5D 1550g

To me it seems there is not much of a weight penalty sticking with the alloy braking surface, which offers much better braking in wet weather.
This raises a question - why full carbon clinchers? What is the advantage?
I reckon the marketing gurus have excelled at convincing everyone they need carbon clinchers because they "look cool". In terms of weight and reliability there are no real gains, and I am sure that between 2008 and now the engineers could have saved 60-100g off of aluminium rimmed carbon clinchers if they tried, but especially in the case of Zipp the wheels seem to get heavier each year (heavier hubs)
Full carbon clinchers are a whole lot more expensive, have minimal weight advantage, often have worse dry weather braking and definitely worse in the wet, heat build up issues, are not recommended for mountainous descents as heat build up could cause blowouts, and some brands have had warping and delamination issues.

I am not anti carbon wheels in any way - I love them, and currently have 3 sets, Edge 1.38 Tubulars (1120g) for days in the hills, FFWD F6R (1350g) for fast flatter days and still light enough for climbing, and Zipp 404 carbon/alloy clinchers that I now use as an every day set.

The above article from Bike Radar calls for standards on carbon clinchers, which I think is a brilliant idea. So many on this forum are going with cheap Chinese rims. I am sure some of them are comparable to name brands, possibly coming out of the same moulds or factories, but with all things cheap or counterfeit, they may look the same and visually be hard to differentiate, but quality is nearly always an issue. Cheaper carbon, cheaper resin, quality control, warranty, testing, etc etc would have to be absent or inadequate in many cases.



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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:33 am 
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"Tires blowing off" happens to plenty of aluminum clinchers also. I don't think it is carbon related.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 3:20 am 
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HED decided not to move forward with their carbon clincher project because no matter how great they made the rims themselves, the inner tubes were heating to considerable figures causing the "blow up" mentioned above.

Resins are getting better, but heat management is the real issue. The carbon's Tg figures might be off the charts stellar, but if the inner tube cannot sustain such heat transfers, then it will explode.

Tubular tubes are a bit more protected since the tub itself is inside of another tub (so to speak). Also, the tube is not restin between the two hottest contact points like in a clincher wheel.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 3:45 am 
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I think they have come along way in the past couple years.. if you got them recently, I would not worry too much. Cant speak for the off chinese brands though. I don't think about it all with my Enve 3.4s and I'm not exactly light on my feet. (180lbs)

Im going to try my wife Bontrager Aeolus D3s this weekend on some hills.. I don't think I've have any issues with those either.


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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 3:45 am 


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:13 am 
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1660g. is a fantastic weight for an alu/carbon hybrid wheelset. My Mavic CC SL weighs in at 1750g. You are correct in that there's little point of having full carbon clinchers other than the bling factor provided that alu/carbon could be within 100g. of the full carbon clinchers. I'm currently looking at reducing the weight of my wheels without going to full carbon and so far only Mavic comes close with the CC SLEs at 1620g (claimed). The CC SLEs also have the benefit of having 6-8 fewer spokes than the full carbon equivalent wheels.


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