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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:54 pm 
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I am excited about some new hubs. I have just got of the phone with Cliff at Royce about a special.

I keep some Gigantex 50mm deep carbon rims which I want to build into some race wheels for my Sannio which I want to take racing next year. also I just like the frame (large diameter columbus genius tubing it gorgoeus). The rear rim is 24H and should be laced radially on the NDS according to gigantex. This pose a problem for many hub as there is a risk of flange failure although it as least minimised due to the low tension, the other problem is I normally have is I have to use nipple freeze or self locking nipples so the NDS spokes don't unwind as low tension radial spokes are prone to this.

So I thought why not use triplet lacing (2:1) in which the NDS spokes run at twice the tension. Of course I could buy a cheap BHS triplet hub for this however there hub is the same dimemensions as a standard hub aslo the bearing are crap. The thing with 2:1 lacing as the NDS spokes are running a double tension you can move the NDS flange out a fair bit. No one make such a hub (fulcrum hubs) so I called Royce and they will.

So I have specified for campagnolo 10/11 speed and DS flange spacing of 17mm and and NDs flange spacing of 43mm. the NDS spokes wil be laced radial heads in and the DS side 3x. Drilling on the DS will be 16H and NDS drilling is 8H. Spoke length calculation will be a odd for the DS but 48H 5x apparantly works we'll see. This truely is not like any hub on the market today that I am aware of. Most hubs put the NDS flange for tenion balance at 33-38mm and DS flange for 11 speed has to be position at ~17mm from centre. Royce do not make anything close.

This will give me a NDS bracing anlge of 9.1 degrees and a DS bracing angle of 4.3 degrees and equal tenion on the DS relative to the NDS. So I will be able to tension the wheel to 1000N and be nowhere near the tenion limit of the rim.

The hubs flanges will be titanium and the shell is carbon. The bearings will be 6001 main body and 6902 in the freehub. Ti axle and freehub body.

This is why I am excited it is also an experiment but I see no reason why it won't work very well. I don't have pics yet as it will take 4 month for these to be built.

I am also buying a matching front hub. The wheels will be built with Sapim CX-ray spokes. I do not know the final weight but the hubs given there construction are unlikely to be more than 400g (but I am uncertain as Royce do not give weights for there hubs and I did not ask as it not too important for me).

the flange will have a natural Ti finish. They will look lush.

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Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:54 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:49 pm 
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Sorry mistake tension balance will be about 80% so 1000N DS and 800NDS still pretty good.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:04 pm 
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bm0p700f wrote:
I am excited about some new hubs. I have just got of the phone with Cliff at Royce about a special.
...
So I have specified for campagnolo 10/11 speed and DS flange spacing of 17mm and and NDs flange spacing of 43mm. the NDS spokes wil be laced radial heads in and the DS side 3x. Drilling on the DS will be 16H and NDS drilling is 8H. Spoke length calculation will be a odd for the DS but 48H 5x apparantly works we'll see. This truely is not like any hub on the market today that I am aware of. Most hubs put the NDS flange for tenion balance at 33-38mm and DS flange for 11 speed has to be position at ~17mm from centre. Royce do not make anything close.

This will give me a NDS bracing anlge of 9.1 degrees and a DS bracing angle of 4.3 degrees and equal tenion on the DS relative to the NDS. So I will be able to tension the wheel to 1000N and be nowhere near the tenion limit of the rim.

The hubs flanges will be titanium and the shell is carbon. The bearings will be 6001 main body and 6902 in the freehub. Ti axle and freehub body.
...

Hi bm0p700f, sounds interesting. Do you have any other specs at this time?

thanks KL :)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:51 pm 
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PCD on the rear will be 45mm and weight is a high 320g. A future project would be to get a hub shell made from aluminium with these dimensions to save some weight but I am not sure if it worth it as hub weight is fairly immaterial in overall wheel performance.

The front hub is 105g and has a flange separation of 67mm and a PCD of 31mm.

The hubs use 6001 N&T bearings in the main shell and 6902 in the freehub. The axles are titanium with stainless 316L knurled nuts to grip the dropouts. With the Ti flanges that would explain the weight. Also the flanges will be in a brushed Ti finish no coatings. Shell of course will be carbon so these will look the nuts as well as giving me a incredibly stiff rear wheel.

Wheel weight will be 1525g approximately when done in 4 months time and that is light enough.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:19 am 
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I can finally justify keeping these which are the 'standard' version of the same hub:

Image

Plan to build them into a set of 47mm Corima tubular rims, or perhaps a set of Enve if I can convince myself to spend the extra (although I prefer the external nipples of the Corima anyway).


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:52 am 
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Hi bm0p700f, if you could bear with me pls, as this may be a very stupid question?

Say with a normal 32 hub, could you not do 2:1 lacing with 24 spokes, with the 8 NDS spokes not radial but crossing? That would make using a Record 32 hub possible as the flange will not be stressed if radially laced.

I'm 115lbs and thinking Archetype rims.

Many thanks.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:08 am 
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I don't understand why radial NDS poses a risk of hub failure. I realize the theoretical stress, but this undervery common lacing pattern. I have never encountered a modern hub that advises against this. Also, I am sure it would work just fine to lace the gigantex 2x both sides. What is their reason for instructing the wheel builder to lace radial NDS? If it is for bracing angle, then surely this should be driven by your hub choice? But a 50mm rim doesn't need a huge bracing angle to be stiff. Especially with 28 spokes. My 24-spoke 50mm rims are 2x/2x and don't flex noticeably under my 80kg weight.

I am all for experimentation, but seems odd to put a 300++ gram hub on a race wheelset. And AFAIK the Enduro bearings that BHS uses are among the best cartridge bearings, no?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:48 am 
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shimmeD wrote:
Say with a normal 32 hub, could you not do 2:1 lacing with 24 spokes, with the 8 NDS spokes not radial but crossing? That would make using a Record 32 hub possible as the flange will not be stressed if radially laced.

A normal 32h hub has 16 spoke holes on each of both flanges, but 1:2 lacing with 32 spokes would need 24 holes DS.

Most hubs flanges are too low for drilling 24 holes in it. If you drill too many holes in a flange there will be insufficent amount of metal left to withstand the forces coming from the spokes.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:05 am 
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Thanks Orfitinho,
Skipping each hole thus using 8 of the 16 NDS holes plus using all of the 16 DS holes makes for 24 2:1/DS:NDS lacing.
No drilling or filling in the superfluous holes.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:01 pm 
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Gigantex make many rims This one comes with a warning from the distributor to lace radially on the NDS rear. the front should also be laced radially. Maybe it is down to the way the holes are drilled. Either way that is how I am doing this.

You could use a record hub for a 2:1 pattern. the hub is not meant for radial lacing but who knows it may work. Hub flanges do fail so it is a risk and I prefer to radially lace on hubs that are meant for it, that way I am not taking risks with parts. Comebacks are not good for business. You would maybe be able to lace the NDS 1x but that is not much better for the hub than radial and will put some horrible bends in the spokes.

Take BHS hubs out in an english winter with salt on the road and you will see how good the bearings are. Enduro are not one of the worlds top bearing makers by a long way. Also when did hub weight actually contribute real world wheel performance. I am building a aero race wheel for racing mostly adding a 100g or so on the rear hub will not slow me down.

Increase bracing angle and tortional stiffness goes up which should improve power transfer (by a very slight amount) it is a race wheel so every little advantage.
Also BHS 2:1 hub are just redrilled versions of the standard hub. They have not taken advantage of the lacing pattern to move the NDS flange out. This is my main reason for not using them.

Given the rims and given I have always wanted to build a 2:1 wheel I think why not do it properly than half an effort with a BHS hub which is not fully optimised for the lacing pattern and that has bearings which will die in the rain, we get alot of rain. Besides Ti bits are sexy.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:40 pm 
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Thanks bm0p700f.
I've had a Chorus 32 with radial on the NDS (not 2:1 however) sans probleme. I'll be happy now to go with 24 2:1 on a 32 Record, thanks again. Also currently BHS 2:1 24 which is going well even though I dented the Kinlin tubular rim.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:44 pm 
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There was radial lacing on the old steel axled campag hubs but the flanhes were thicker I think plus some other differences.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:05 pm 
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I don't know what axle was on my 1996/7 Chorus hub that had the radially laced NDS.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:18 am 
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bm0p700f wrote:
Gigantex make many rims This one comes with a warning from the distributor to lace radially on the NDS rear. the front should also be laced radially. Maybe it is down to the way the holes are drilled. Either way that is how I am doing this.


Well, it sounds like this is all pretty well thought-out :) It is odd to me that a rim mfr would require radial, since I would imagine the hub (and bracing angles, etc.) would play a larger part in that sort of decision. But I'm sure they have a reason.

bm0p700f wrote:
Take BHS hubs out in an english winter with salt on the road and you will see how good the bearings are. Enduro are not one of the worlds top bearing makers by a long way.


I have ridden them through a few mid-Atlantic (USA) winters without any problems. But we get less rain than you, I assume. So, they have worked great for me, but understood that in more extreme conditions they might not. I suppose I should count myself lucky I won't be experiencing that first-hand :)

bm0p700f wrote:
Also when did hub weight actually contribute real world wheel performance. I am building a aero race wheel for racing mostly adding a 100g or so on the rear hub will not slow me down.


You do realize this is weight weenies, right? ;-)

... And it makes this quote sound a little contradictory:

bm0p700f wrote:
... it is a race wheel so every little advantage.


Anyway, good luck on the build. Sounds like a fun project.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:17 am 
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Saving 100g at the rear hub (the front is only 105g) will not improve my performance so it is not contradictory. Aero wheels need not be extremely light as the benefit come from being well aero. Also I live in Suffolk and ride in East Anglia, no big mountains. These wheels are for flat out speed nothing else. I might also use them on TT's as currently I have nothing aero on my bike I use for TT's.

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Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:17 am 


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