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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Wonder if they are still using washers inside for the nipples/spokes?!?! Another issue that is a complaint...why they do that? Worried about the spoke hole and ability to handle the mid-level 100kg spoke tension???

Well, this looks like an improvement anyway. And not only with the cross lacing pattern on both side now, but they supposedly fixed the play issue with the bearings on the pre-load so you can actually remove it entirely if you please, some 2012 flaw apparently with the 188 I had on mine.

The looks badass though for sure. Always loved the beyond black new FC wheels. But I've moved on.....


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:28 pm 
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I have never used Zipp wheels and I am not a wheel expert/physicist, but when reading a thread like this and what appears to be valid claims regarding "alleged" Zipp design flaws etc... even to the point where pro's use there rims, but use different hubs and spoke patterns etc......

I can't help but think...

Why does such a "large and well know" company have problems like this?

Enve, Campagnolo, Mavic, Reynolds and others seem to have seen the issues and quickly fixed them and/ never implemented those flawed practices (radial spokes, poor hub quality, washers as nipple support in rims), in the first place.

I guess I would think a large company like Zipp would be a the front end of the knowledge and research.

Am I missing something? :noidea:


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Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:28 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Thank God that Cav talked some sense in them
Quote:
New for 2014, the 202 Tubular is built with a the latest iteration of our 188 rear hub, the V9, along with new spoke-lacing pattern for the rear wheel. The refinements result in improved stiffness and durability. The new hub was developed in cooperation of superstar sprinter Mark Cavendish of the Omega Pharma – Quick-Step Cycling Team and already is in use by other top pro cyclists and triathletes including Pete Jacobs and Mirinda Carfrae. Cavendish received early hub prototypes in January 2013 and logged 13,000 kilometers (8,078 miles) on continually refined variants, including his stage victories at the Giro d’Italia and the 2013 Tour de France.

The new hub has larger precision Swiss steel bearings for increased durability. Our new “virtual 3 cross” lacing on both sides of rear wheel improves stiffness, achieving 3 cross stiffness in a 2 cross pattern with a new spoke geometry.
Duh..

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:53 am 
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coloclimber wrote:
Thank God that Cav talked some sense in them
Quote:
New for 2014, the 202 Tubular is built with a the latest iteration of our 188 rear hub, the V9, along with new spoke-lacing pattern for the rear wheel. The refinements result in improved stiffness and durability. The new hub was developed in cooperation of superstar sprinter Mark Cavendish of the Omega Pharma – Quick-Step Cycling Team and already is in use by other top pro cyclists and triathletes including Pete Jacobs and Mirinda Carfrae. Cavendish received early hub prototypes in January 2013 and logged 13,000 kilometers (8,078 miles) on continually refined variants, including his stage victories at the Giro d’Italia and the 2013 Tour de France.

The new hub has larger precision Swiss steel bearings for increased durability. Our new “virtual 3 cross” lacing on both sides of rear wheel improves stiffness, achieving 3 cross stiffness in a 2 cross pattern with a new spoke geometry.
Duh..


It would be nice if they could be accurate with how they say stiffness. Unless they have changed the hub and rim geometry and/or laced the spokes all HeadsIn (with improved DS/NDS Bracing Angle), Virtual 3X lacing will not improve Lateral stiffness, but it will improve Torque Drive, which is what Cavendish is looking for with his sprinting and for that matter Climbing...

Actually, after another look at the nice machining of the hub, I am surprised Zipp didn't try to do Virtual Full Tangential 4X lacing, for maximum Torque Drive :)
Although, that would mean that they wouldn't be able to use a 2X pattern.
It would need to be a a Virtual 4X lacing in a 1X pattern :)

thanks KL :)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:05 pm 
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The way Zipp have done it, using 1 elongated/large hole, appears to leave part of the spoke head unsupported which allows for easy spoke entry and removal?
Zipp could have done this easily with 2 closely positioned holes rather than 1 elongated/large hole :)

I think complete spoke head support, using 2 closely positioned spoke holes, would be better than using 1 elongated/large hole for easier spoke entry.
The 2 closely positioned holes would have provided complete support for each spoke head, while maintaining very strong hub support and HeadsIn spoke lacing for max Bracing Angle :)

Having said that it would appear that Zipp are using proprietary straight pull spokes which would necessitate the need for 1 elongated/large hole for easy spoke head entry.
Not always easy to tell from a picture.
Still, it's fun to theorize :)

Interesting ... thanks KL :)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:38 am 
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dmoneysworks wrote:
Cav's Zipp hubs/wheels? Zipp Wheel - V9 hub video


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:23 pm 
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I would like feedback on choosing between '13 and '14 model of 404 tubular.

The new lacing of the rear wheel/hubs will increase stiffness for sure, on the other hand it will also increase weight by ~90g.

Since I am quite skinny at 187cm - 68kg (6 feet 1⅝ inch - 150lbs) I dont put the same load on wheels like powerful sprinters.

The wheels will be used on my new aero build (Cervelo S5) and since Im coming from a R3 that nearly 400g lighter I´m not that keen on putting on further extra weight (ran Easton EC90 Aeros on the R3, which are ~ same weight as 2013 404 tubs)

Im thinking going 2013:s, especially since my lbs has a killer deal on them. Crazy decision?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Well, IMO, Zipp should have never had the weight and lacing the way they did making them lighter to begin with.

I wouldn't put too much into those weight numbers of 1445g now considering they are 58mm deep wheels in tubular. If anything, the previous weights were bogus because you sacrificed stiffness/stability and power transfer with that ridiculous radial DS lacing and terrible 188 hub design on the past several years.

The weight now is on target and respectable IMO for a regular hub/spoke non-all carbon wheel setup.

If you really want lighter wheels and aero...pickup a pair of used 303 FC tubulars, older ones, put new hubs on and relace them up. You could get close to 1200gms depending on the hubs used.

I was close to doing that with my 303 FC tubulars, but decided to just get a set of chinese 40mm aero HongFu and run Alchemy hubs/CXRays for the same price I sold the 303 FCs for used.

But I'm at 1400gms now, they are clinchers. So I sacrificed a bit of weight for much better hubs and convenience of clinchers...no big deal, hasn't affected my performance one bit.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:31 pm 
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Location: Aix en Provence
This the "Zipp du jour". Constant changes and promises of stiffness this and that. I had a pair of 404 many years ago and they were a complete POS, horrible hub, non balanced rims,etc... Since then they must have had 10 revisions of it always claiming that the previous flaws are now fixed. Yeah right, no thanks.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:07 pm 
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ZIPP wheels get better every year... but they never get really good. That being said, i love riding my 2009 303... in flat terrain. They roll really good and are smooth and comfortable. Uphill, they're just much to soft side to side and torsionally. Climbing out of the saddle the rear rim rubs the pads on steep grades and i hear the rear spokes moaning and jingling, prolly due to the goofy radial lacing on the driveside and the low max tension of 110 Kg. Would i buy ZIPP again? Not with what the market has to offer nowadays and at their pricepoint...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:56 pm 
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To be fair I have enjoyed the 2011, 2012 and 2013 models and have had no issues with the 188 hub. In fact, I find the hub super easy to adjust and service. The only issue was the 2013's had a spoke coming loose after every ride but linseed oil (Loctite Green 290, recommended by Zipp) resolved that. I am a big fella, 210+lbs 6'3" and do not run into overly-flexy issues with this wheel or the previous year 404's granted I live in flat windy conditions. I find they have the best braking surface of any carbon braking Ive ever used and I'll gladly pick up a pair of 2014's if the price is right, but I do not need them right now. Zipp lead the curve in aerodynamics. They might be playing around with spoke lacing and catching up on hub design but their fairings have been copied by the best and they continue to innovate at least. Just a shame its every year.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:34 pm 
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ill principe wrote:
I would like feedback on choosing between '13 and '14 model of 404 tubular.


I just finished a summer on the 2013 404 tubular and am in the proces of gluing a new tire to the rear. I am happy to report that the wheel is perfectly true. I am stoked to see that after hammering on that wheel really hard for around 3000 rough road (tons of roots, pot holes) miles. The bearing play is pretty easy to adjust in the dropouts in my experience. I think there were some minor improvements to the hub for 2013 as well.

So to answer your question of weight vs. improvements? I would like to try those or own them, but I think it's about an even give and take. If these were out of true by now or felt flexy i would say get the 2014s (or a diff wheel) for sure. Btw I am super picky and not a fan boy so this is completely neutral info. I weight about 78kg.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:53 pm 
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Location: Chicago
I have never had issue with the 188 hub. I had a pair of 2011 303s with an older version and still have a pair of 101s with that old version. No problems with either. I now have a pair of 2013 303s with the v8 hub and have had no problems with those. Stiffness hasn't been an issue for me. I'm around 72kg. If I were in the market for another pair of Zipps I would try and find some 2013s. They should be less than retail now. I'm sure the new ones are technically stiffer but the weight is really getting up there.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:16 am 
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Thanks for the input. I ended up bying a set of 2013s, primarily because of the price that my LBS could offer.


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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:16 am 


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:32 pm 
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So... if "a friend" had a set of 404 FC 2011 model (v7?) all silver hubs...

... and was "thinking" of upgrading the hubs on said wheels maybe next year, would all you who have way more expertise in this field than said friend recommend upgrading to the v9 (assuming Zipps claims are all true and the hubs work as promised) or just pay up and go for an Alchemy UL (once/if they ever decide to make a Campy-compatible version) down the road?

Is that a ridiculous question?

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