Sapim CX Ray wind up question

[seve88]

I've built about 30 wheels so far, all with a high and relatively even tension and none have failed so I've a reasonable skill and knowledge of wheel building.

I have just finished my first wheel with bladed spokes, namely CX Rays. The wheel is true and stands after repeated stress relieving.

However, I have noticed that I have had to align the blades if that makes sense. With all the blades pretty much square and correctly aligned I can turn every nipple in the loosening direction until they are stuck (in the sense any more turning would then start turning the thread in the nipple). If I leave them at that point the blades are twisted with the bladed part nearest the nipple not pointing straight. This has no effect on trueness and stress relieving has no effect either. Likewise turning them in a tightening motion, about 1/8th turn so the baldes are square and aligned has no effect as well.

Is this the norm (if I have explained myself well enough)?

[Miller]

Um, sounds like friction, which is kind of normal? The main thing with CXrays or any bladed spoke is that your last adjustment is to go round the wheel and make sure all the blades are aligned with the wind; what would be the point otherwise. That should also be the position in which there is no spoke wind-up. The spokes should remain in this position although this is worth checking occasionally.

[Zen Cyclery]

Get the Alchemy Spoke Holder specifically for Cxrays. That will make your life much easier:

http://www.zencyclery.com/components/small-parts/wheelbuilding-parts/alchemy-spoke-holder.html

[seve88]

I have a few tools, the Spaim tool, a home made one and also the Dt one that integrates with the DT spoke key. http://www.dtswiss.com/Accessories/Proline-Tools" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I actually found it easier to allow the spoke to wind up, observe and then back off by the amount of wind up, much like a round spoke. When I used the various tools they still caused some wind up and I found it harder to judge with them.

I'll try to post a video in the next couple of days to explain a little better.

[petal666]

I actually found it easier to allow the spoke to wind up, observe and then back off by the amount of wind up, much like a round spoke. When I used the various tools they still caused some wind up and I found it harder to judge with them.

It might be 'easier' but it's not how you build with bladed spokes, you need to hold them and stop them from twisting. I doubt you are building wheels to 120 kg.f with your current method.

[Berg]

What I find to be better that trying to hold the spoke fixed, is to simply let it twist as I tightning the spoke (but never more than 1/2 turn!), and then I use the spoke holder tool (from Mavic in my case) to twist the spoke back to straight.

You might think the nipple would then also turn back to the starting point, but that is not the case: The nipple stays put, as the friction between rim and nipple is greater that friction between nipple and spoke (asuming you have lubed the thread).

So when I first use the nipple tool I turn both nipple and spoke the desired amount, and then only in step two is the tension increased, as I return the spoke (and untwist it) - in effect screwing the spoke into the nipple. Hope you get the picture

IMHO this method is more gentle on the spokes, and I find it easier to do.

[petal666]

I see now. I don't see how twisting is better for the spoke than holding it preventing it twisting.

[Berg]

I see now. I don't see how twisting is better for the spoke than holding it preventing it twisting.

If you try and hold the spoke in fixed position while tightening, you can't have the spoke holder placed right at the end of the spoke, but have to place it above the nipple wrench.
For high tension (or if the nipple is a bit stuck on a used wheel), this can easily cause a nasty "tight" twist giving permanent damage in the middle of the spoke - just below the spoke holding tool, but above the nipple wrench.

With "my" method, I can use the spoke holding tool right at the very end of the spoke (up against the nipple), and there is no risk of damage. Letting the spoke twist 1/4 turn along its full length is a soft twist, and will never hurt the spoke - it just flexes right back.

- Of course all this only applies when using regular nipples - not internal, where it is no problem to hold spoke fixed while tightening.

[petal666]

This spoke holder with this spoke key lets you hold the spoke right down to where the blade changes to round.

[Berg]

Thanks for the tip petal666, that is a clever solution. Perhaps I will try those DT swiss tools sometime, but for now my trusty Spokey will do fine