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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:46 pm
Posts: 55
Location: Austin, Texas
I've decided to buy a set of Zipp 202 Firecrests. The only question is do I go with stock 188 hubs or have them built with DT Swiss 240 hubs? I've never liked zipp hubs but hear the 188s are good.. Love the 240s and think they will build into a stiffer, more serviceable wheels. I can get the zips hubs version for about $2000. The DT will run $2600.....

What way would you go? Is the extra $600 worth it? Opinions please.... :noidea:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:16 am 
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
240 hubs have a terrible NDS flange spacing, I doubt that they'd build into a stiffer wheel. I'd stick with the 188 hubs

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:28 am 
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Location: Austin, Texas
I've never heard that about 240s. I assume you mean non-drive side spacing. Most people I've spoken with compare the j-bend spoke on the 240 to the straight pull spokes on the 188. I have a set of enve 45s with 240s and the are very stiff. Any experience with the Zipp hubs?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:30 am 
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Location: Austin, Texas
BTW - many thanks for the input. All very valuable.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:26 am 
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Zipp hubs have very small, poorly sealed bearings. I suppose if you never ride in the rain they would be great.

Overall DT hubs have significantly better bearings and are far and away easier to service.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:17 am 
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If you use a DT 240 you would be limited to a 24h front hub. DT makes a 20h or 24h, but not 18h hub which means a 6 more spokes than the standard 88 hub/202 rim 18h configuration.

DT 240s laced radial DS and 2x NDS to the zipp X32 (202 Firecrest Clincher) gives a DS bracing angle of 3.5 degrees and a NDS bracing angle of 6.7 degrees
Zipp 188 laced radial DS and 2x NDS to the zipp X32(202 Firecrest Clincher) gives a DS bracing angle of 4.3 degrees and a NDS bracing angle of 7.3 degrees

DT 240s rear road hubs use 15mm axles, while Zipp 188s use 17mm axles.
DT 240s are claimed to weigh 105g for the front and 208g for the rear while the zipp 88/188 pair is claimed at 98g and 200g respectively.

These are only calculations, but from a theoretical standpoint, the DT hubs offer no performance advantages from a lateral stiffness or weight savings comparison. If you service your own hubs personally, the DTs could be worth the investment. If you have a shop you trust that can deal with Zipp, then I can't see your expenses there being large enough to make up the difference.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:07 pm 
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Location: Austin, TX
I've replaced the bearings in my zipp 404's with the 88/188 hubs once. It wasn't hard at all. They're not bad hubs.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:25 pm 
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The only thing that bothers me about the Zipp is the 188 rear. There is slop/play, even when you tighten the pre-load up. I mean 2-3mm back/forth between the pads you can wiggle the wheel. Tightening the pre-load will never remove it, and Zipp says this is "normal". Adding more pre-load only adds more drag to the tune of 3-5w or more, and still play.

So if there is one component of a Zipp wheelset I would replace when the hub/bearing goes, it would be the 188 rebuilt with something like the Alchemy UL that is out now. It looks a lot like the 188 hubs with no markings on it.

I think the front 88 hub is a fine hub, no problems I've heard of or experienced personally. It rolls great and always smooth. Never need to touch it, no play/slop in that thing. But you can't say the same for the 188 hub, even though it is the latest version for their wheels, it still have issues that make me not have much confidence in it at times.

I've posted this before in other threads. I'm secretly hoping (guess it isn't a secret anymore except to my wheels), that my rear 188 hub just implodes or has issues so I can rebuild it with the new Alchemy UL rear hub and be done with it.

Rims/CXRays, hard to beat them on the market today, but that rear hub...arrrgh...

If you are doing a custom build, do something different with the rear. Otherwise, you could live with the 188 for a long time, it isn't that horrible.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:31 am 
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Alchemy hubs. Read this: http://fairwheelbikes.com/cycling-blog/updates-and-news/2012-hub-review-information-overload.html

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:49 am 
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I'd second the vote for Alchemy hubs.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/first-ride-alchemy-orc-ul-hub-303302.html

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:24 am 
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Location: Canada
Zen Cyclery wrote:


Lol. There you go.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:31 am 
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Location: NoVA/DC
As far as 188 rear hub play goes, if it's a 2013 wheel, with the black left end cap, that's (finally) been 100% addressed. the axle/bearing tolerance is much more snug, there isn't the radial space that was previously causing the lateral play.
Incidentally, on older 188 hubs, I was putting a thin coat of fingernail polish(!) on the bearing seat areas to tighten up the fit. It works. Sucks that you had to do that, I know.
I prefer the 188 hubs over the DT 240s. Better geometry, night-and-day coasting drag, etc. And I've ridden my 101s in the rain (a lot, they're on my commuter bike) and they're 100%. I do occasionally open them for inspection, but haven't ever seen moisture past the seals. A couple customers have toasted one bearing here n there, they've been the abusing types in general, and replacement is easy.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:25 pm 
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"Incidentally, on older 188 hubs, I was putting a thin coat of fingernail polish(!) on the bearing seat areas to tighten up the fit. It works. Sucks that you had to do that, I know."

Not to hijack large here ...can you expand a bit on your process ^ please


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:53 pm 
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thisisatest wrote:
As far as 188 rear hub play goes, if it's a 2013 wheel, with the black left end cap, that's (finally) been 100% addressed. the axle/bearing tolerance is much more snug, there isn't the radial space that was previously causing the lateral play.
Incidentally, on older 188 hubs, I was putting a thin coat of fingernail polish(!) on the bearing seat areas to tighten up the fit. It works. Sucks that you had to do that, I know.
I prefer the 188 hubs over the DT 240s. Better geometry, night-and-day coasting drag, etc. And I've ridden my 101s in the rain (a lot, they're on my commuter bike) and they're 100%. I do occasionally open them for inspection, but haven't ever seen moisture past the seals. A couple customers have toasted one bearing here n there, they've been the abusing types in general, and replacement is easy.



Interesting. Wonder if Zipp will take a wheel back and replace the hub with a 2013. The 2012 FC still has the play. I checked a fellow competitors 303 FC clincher, same issue...assume his was a 2012 also. The wiggle/play, even when you go slightly tighter on the pre-load, is still there.

Or, I guess I could just send it to someone like Fairwheel or Wheelbuilder, and have them put a new Alchemy UL hub on the back and string it back up. Problem solved.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:30 pm 
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Location: Colorado
Are you using factory or lightweight skewers on your wheels? I've found that light skewers such as kcnc don't clamp hard enough.

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