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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Posts: 1362
I'll be building this combo, probably with DT Revos since I can get them cheap. Front is 20, rear 28 hole, and they will get 28mm tires for gravel & backroad touring.

Comfort is more important than stiffness - I have 50mm carbon clinchers for that.

I'm thinking 1-cross front, and in the rear (asymmetric rim with 3.5mm offset) 3 cross DS, 1 cross NDS.

Would this work well? Any suggestions?

Cheers,
Marin


Last edited by Marin on Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:51 am 
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The lacing on the front wheel is far less important than the rear. The front would be fine with a radial, 1x, or 2x in a 20 hole. For the rear I'd go 2x both sides. I think that with the relatively soft nature of the A23 a 1x on the NDS would be prone to going slack and possible breaking. 2x both sides is a safer bet IMO.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:06 am 
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Thanks!

Do you think 2x on the DS is enough to transfer torque and to prevent non-pulling spokes from going slack?

And - wouldn't 1x in the front wheel be a bit more compliant than radial?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:01 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
2x DS is fine for torque. Modern hubs are stiff so the NDS transmits torque too. But 3x DS/2x NDS would not hurt.

I like 1x for the front instead of radial but I don't detect a difference in ride.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:07 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
every OC A23 rim I have had has had a low tension limit compared to the standard version. so the tension balance advantage just evaporated. I have stopped using the A23 OC and rarely use the A23 in general.

2x rear radial front.

Rims do not seem to affect comfort. I have 50mm carbon rims that give a more comfortable ride than some of ,y alloy wheels why the rim are very wide and the tyres take a wide profile. nothing to do with the rim material or depth. The tyre absorb road undulations no the wheel all wheels are to stiff to deflect my any meaningfull amount which is good otherwise they would fall apart.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:50 pm 
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Location: Welland, Ontario
There was a lengthy discussion over on RBR about front wheel lacing.

My contribution stirred things up a bit. I had a 20 spoke front that I had to build 1X because I screwed up the spoke calc reading and bought the wrong ones.

With 20 spokes and 1X I immediately saw a problem with either all heads in or all heads out. The crossing was way too close to the elbows. So, I did alternating with no lacing of course, and that's what stirred things up.

Given a choice I'd do it radial, like the common wisdom here.

Also like the wisdom here, with a 28H rear, the angles are such that a 2X both sides build is probably optimum. I've got plenty of time riding this setup and it's been fine.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:24 pm 
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Very interesting, I also found the thread on RBR and read it.

99% I'll be going for 2x/2x rear with identical spokes left&right, but I'm still not sure about the front wheel:

- Radial is aero, light, easy & boring, but still nice to look at.
- 1x is a bit difficult because of the crossing being so close (so no lacing), but might be better for the flange in the long run. All heads in/all out/alternating/using washers needs careful consideration.
- Or 2x in the front, too?


bikerjulio wrote:
I had a 20 spoke front that I had to build 1X


Would you say there's a difference in how the 1x wheel rides compared to a radial one?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:56 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I've built wheels radial and then rebuilt them 1x. Same hubs, rims and (new) spokes. I could not detect a difference in ride.

The new wheel was stiffer laterally because I laced the 1x heads in while the radial was heads out. That increases bracing angle.

I've yet to have a 1x heads in wheel have the cross too close. The outer spoke does need to bend a little around the inner spoke but that's ok, and it happens in 2x and 3x wheels too.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:17 pm 
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@Marin-All things that same there's going to be no noticeable difference between a radial, 1x or 2x pattern up front. Radial heads in will be the stiffest but this is really a non issue on most front hubs seeing as they tend to be much stiffer than rear wheels (due to the tension equality on both sides). So for the most part it's really going to come down to aesthetics. If it were me I'd go with 1x heads out but only because I like the way that it looks. Keep in mind that the lacing of this wheel is only one important factor of many. Proper stress relief and tensioning is really what's going to make or break this build.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:50 pm 
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Thanks for all the info!

Current plan is now 2x all around front & rear, it's under 10g heavier on the front wheel, should be slightly better for the flanges and bearing seats and looks nice too.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:04 pm 
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Location: Welland, Ontario
Marin wrote:
Thanks for all the info!

Current plan is now 2x all around front & rear, it's under 10g heavier on the front wheel, should be slightly better for the flanges and bearing seats and looks nice too.


I don't know about 2X on a 20 spoke wheel, but perhaps that's just me. Have you figured the angles?

Oh and no, I haven't ridden my new wheels yet. Weather.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:02 am 
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Image

Looks ok to me, depending on how long the butt on the Revos is I'll be able to lace them or not.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:25 pm 
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Posts: 1362
I got my Bitex Rar 12 hubs from good886 on ebay - I can recommend the seller - and finished the build yesterday - I went with 2x front and rear DS and 3x NDS. Tension ratio in the rear with the offset A23 and 2x/ 3x is 3:2, which is really good I'd say.

Truing was easy, and during stress relieving, the front felt as stiff as the rear, so going with 20/28 spokes seems to have been a good decision.

Weight is also decent for a budget build - 90g more than my 50/23mm carbon clinchers.

Image

Image

Image

Image


Little Pentagrams FTW:
Image

Image


Last edited by Marin on Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:56 pm 
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I'm not an expert but should the heads in spokes really be crossing the heads out spokes on the inside?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:04 pm 
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Yes, otherwise they wouldn't touch at all. The idea is to prevent a single spoke from going completely slack when unloaded by making it share stresses with the crossing spoke.


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