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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:23 am 
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
been looking at putting together another set of wheels, been debating whether or not wider rims are worth it for me. I've searched for a few recounts and people generally agree but I've yet to notice a recount from a lighter rider. Any mountain goats on this forum willing to comment on their ride?

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Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:23 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Wide rims can give you small improvements in the ride quality department. Other than that, they aren't too much different.

Width isn't the only factor you should be considering though. Rim profile, design, materials, construction, etc should all be taken into account as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:34 am 
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verycreativeusername wrote:
been looking at putting together another set of wheels, been debating whether or not wider rims are worth it for me. I've searched for a few recounts and people generally agree but I've yet to notice a recount from a lighter rider. Any mountain goats on this forum willing to comment on their ride?

Hi verycreativeusername, when used in conjunction with deeper aero styles ... Yes.

Are narrower (19/20W) rims, with deeper aero styles, superior to wider box style rims ... Yes

Solely for climbing ... No ... low rim weight and a stiff wheel configuration is best. A little more tyre rubber on the ground is also good but not at the expense of added weight which is where the 23/24W rims are providing benefits with the 23mm tyres by allowing lower tyre pressure to be used.

Resolving the weight issue is the next key for alloy rims, which CF is filling the gap at this time ... but only the wealthy can afford these, although the Chinese outlets are filling that gap at the moment.

thanks KL :)


Last edited by KLabs on Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:47 am 
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Wide rims are cool... except if your frame is really tight clearances. I'm constantly having issues with Stan's 340 rear wheel (17mm internal width) rubbing the chainstays when using 24mm Conti gp4000's on my Scott addict. I don't think I could run 25mm tires.

As for comfort, I still get beat up going over chip seal at 100PSI. So it's not magic. Honestly, I thought the whole reason for the wide rim trend was for aerodynamic reasons. Basically zipp did it so you didn't have to run 19mm tires for aero benefits. And other windtunnel data I'm sure. No idea if any of this applies to clinchers or non-aero wheels.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:45 am 
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
hmm... interesting feedback, thanks guys

with the width vs weight, would 134g (67 per rim) be worth the wider rim? Two rims I'm tossing up between are the Kinlin XR-200 and the Pacenti SL23. I've considered the ZTR 340, which seems to be the best of both for me, but I've decided against it for a variety of reasons.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:09 pm 
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@verycreativeusername- The XR200 is a very soft rim, and frankly I think its relatively low quality, especially when comparing it to a Pacenti or C2. I think you would be much better off on the SL23. It would provide a better ride quality than the XR200, and it is quite a bit more rigid as well.

Those two rims aren't even in the same league.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:20 pm 
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I'm a huge fan of the wider rims...and yet, I think the hype is way overblown. The only real difference I see is in aerodynamics. Having the tire closer to the width of the rim is a good thing, and there can be an aerodynamic benefit to a properly-shaped rim as narrow as 24mm. Shimano's 24mm-deep rims have proven that. And, unlike some things I read on the internet, wheel aerodynamics is more than about "holding speed", it helps under all situations--and is worth the tradeoff in weight in most situations. Bottom line, a 28mm rim with a well-matched tire can have significantly less drag than a 50mm rim with a poorly matched tire.

As far as comparing something like an XR-200 to an XC-279, I'm willing to get that with a 22-23mm tire the wider/heavier rim will be the faster option up until grades of about 5-6% (a little more or less depending on power output).

Regarding the other benefits though?? I just don't buy it. Crr has proven to be the same, within the margin of error of measurement. While some mfg's have made this claim, I've seen zero evidence nor have I been able to discern a difference myself (and I've tried).

The other benefit(s) are that the ride quality/handling is improved and that you can run lower pressures. Well, you can run lower pressure just as easily on a narrower rim (probably easier, with less risk of damaging the rim). I train on absurdly low pressures and never had any issues. And my guess is that the handling/ride quality "benefits" are directly related to the use of lower pressure, not the rim width. I've ridden the same tires at the same pressures on both wider and narrow rims, and there was certainly no difference that I would tell. If you want the magical benefits of improved ride, just lower your pressure...

One last thing. Keep in mind that mating the tire width to the rim isn't exactly as straightforward as it sounds. The width differential between rim and tire can be same with the same tire on different width rims, depending on the tire and the rim. If you want the tire to mate well to the rim, you ideally have to use a 22mm tire on a 23mm-wide rim. That puts the actual tire width at 22.5-23.2mm, depending on the tire. I'm using the Vittoria Tri Clincher, basically an Evo Slick in a 22, on my XC-279. A Conti Attack works well also. A 24mm Force measures 26.5!! on that rim. I don't know how different tires measure on the Pacenti rims, but it may be more suitable for 23mm tires. I'll know better when I get my hands on one. For now though, I'm happy with the XC-279's. Just don't expect anything except some slightly-improved aerodynamics.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:03 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I have a set of wheels built with XC-279 rims. The rims are stiff and straight and made nice solid wheels. The handlins on turns is maybe slightly better, but the improvement if any is so small that it's possible I imagine it. Same with the ride. Dropping a few psi has a larger effect.

I don't notice a difference in aerodynamics like with 50mm carbon wheels, where I can tell I'm a little faster on descents. It might be there, just not enough to notice without actually measuring it.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:34 am 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
I'm a huge fan of the wider rims...and yet, I think the hype is way overblown.


I tend to agree. It all sounds like a variation on a theme by the biking industry.
With tons of contradictory data out there it is hard to tell what's actually faster and what's not.

They make it sound as if a 27mm tyre matched to an equally wide or wider rim is going to make you faster. That's just not possible.
They also claim a wider tyre is automatically faster than a narrower one. Not true either as that wider tyre may well present a lower Crr or not, it will inevitably present a far larger frontal area than a less wide one which will slow it down. Bollocks once again, I'd say.

What good is a lower Crr going to do if you're bound to lose the benefit by increased drag anyway?

The key is to find and match the right set of compromises for your race. Right pressure, right rim width, shape and tyre and so forth set to achieve a certain purpose.
Saying this or that is the be all is just plain short sighted.
Generalising on this is hopeless. Everything has to match a certain goal.

No law of physics has changed. We all know a more supple tyre will behave just the same as a wider tyre with a less compliant yet wider casing.
Yet now they want you to believe this less supple and wider casing is more aero (it might be under controlled circumstances) is going to make you faster no matter what?

All previous tests are invalid overnight and all laws of physics are non-existent at best?

And yes, wider casings are intrinsically better rolling. They also catch more wind. Always have always will.

My plea is basically for a better comprehension of basic laws of physics, applied laws of physics, a better comprehension of where and how to apply this logic, with equally applied logic. Not just blindly following a fashion for no good reason

Sounds complicated? It is not.

What you want is a better tyre. What they offer is a wider tyre.

A wider tyre does not make a better tyre. Period.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:50 am 
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The problem is an industry that needs to sell new stuff all the time! Once people see pro riders use something, then everybody follows. Some blogs contribute to the myth. http://inrng.com/2013/04/reinventing-the-wheel-25mm/


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:06 am 
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
hmm... lots of food for thought here... thanks guys!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Very well said, JTWS.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:02 pm 
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Wow, I seem to have the opposite opinion of a lot of feedback provided. When I mated GP4000s to my Belgiums I went with 23mm for the "aero" benefit (admittedly, they measured 26.5mm) I couldn't begin to tell you they were any "faster" or slower than my SRAM S27, ROL D'Huez, or Farsport 50mm clinchers. The ride comfort wasn't much improved on the 23 either - I tried running 95 psi and pinch flatted twice. No thanks. I would absolutely say wider wheels handle better though.

I've now been regularly swapping back and forth between the S27 (24mm Vittoria Pave and butyl tubes) and a newly built set of Archetypes (25mm vittoria CX with latex tubes) and the latter absolutely roll better, are more comfortable, and handle better.

To more specifically answer the OP - I'm not really sure how rider weight is involved when discussing rim widths going uphill - nor would I really offer any benefit to wider wheels going uphill... but there are usually downhill sections following the up - and for that reason alone, I'm a wide rim convert.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:09 pm 
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Well I have GP4 season on my DT Swiss RR415 and they measure 24.6mm wide so I don't need wide rims for a wider profile. I do not think the aero benefits of a wider rim are that important for most cyclists. Where I like wider rims is the effect it has on handling and the the fact you can run much wider tyres. I do not think wider rims roll any better (in fact the physics suggests the difference in Crr is vanishingly small). Lower pressre slightly can be run but it is what 5psi if that not much really you can do that with a narrow rim if you like. This is why I build with narrow rims and wide rims. I like them both for different reasons.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:13 pm 
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Imaking20 wrote:
I would absolutely say wider wheels handle better though.


Handle better in what way?

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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:13 pm 


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